PREVIOUS HOUR

RG/2.30/2N

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (contd.): Now these are very, very difficult areas. Some of these officers and men are living at a very, very high altitude, that is, at a height of 18,000 ft. and some of them tell me that if they live there for one year, it is equivalent to three years of their lifetime, that is, their life is reduced by three years. They are living in very, very difficult areas. Nobody realises what kind of duties they have to perform living in these difficult areas and guarding the borders. This has to be realised. Now because of different kinds of terrain and different kinds of geographical areas which have to be guarded, the Forces have to perform their duties little differently. That is why the Forces, which are guarding the border which is between Bangladesh and India, will be living in a different kind of an atmosphere, and a different kind of a terrain, while the Forces which are guarding the border between Pakistan and India are living in a different kind of a terrain. The Forces, which will be guarding the borders between Nepal and India, or, Bhutan and India, will also be in a different kind of a geographical area. And the Forces, which are guarding the area between Tibet and India, will also be having a different kind of a terrain. Also, they were brought into existence at different times. The Assam Rifles is as old as 100 years, whereas the BSF was brought into existence in the 60s. Also, the other Forces were brought into existence at different times. So, the time at which they were brought into existence and the area in which they are functioning are different. That is why the character, which they have developed, has to be maintained, and it is going to be helpful. Moreover, if you have such a long border, and if you have such a large Force of say 8 lakh officers and men working over there, it becomes very difficult to control them and maintain the discipline from one area. Even, for that purpose, it would become necessary to see that different divisions are created and they work there. Now that they are in existence under different names and there are different Forces, these things are continued and the Government does not have any plan of merging them into one Force or having only one force. It is also not necessary. It is good that they are working in this fashion. It is good that they have their own expertise, and they are using that expertise. One of the hon. Members spoke about attrition. Now it is true that the Members of these Forces are working in very, very difficult conditions, and the rate of attrition is very, very high. As a matter of fact, it is not the defence forces which are in the first line. It is the paramilitary forces which are in the first line in guarding the international borders. It is only on the actual Line of Control that the defence forces are in the first line. But at other places, the paramilitary forces are there. And because they are living at very high altitudes and in very difficult areas, even the supplies are sent to them through helicopters, and when the food material is dropped or other materials are dropped, sometimes the material is lost. And sometimes they find it very difficult and yet they are there. Then, their loneliness; I have seen the boys living in bunkers and forward areas. One or two boys live there for days together, and there is nobody to give them the company nor is there any entertainment for them. But, in that area, they live for months together, and it becomes very difficult. That kind of a difficult life is responsible for attrition. (Continued by 2O)

2o/2.05/ks

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): Now, what has been done by the Government? We have taken certain steps and we will also take more steps. It is not necessary for me to explain the kind of steps that we have already taken, but we have taken many steps and we would like to take many more steps in order to see to it that the life they live over there becomes easier and it becomes possible for them to live there a little more comfortably than they have been living now.

There was a question raised by one of the hon. Members relating to the Unified Command. Now, this Unified Command, Sir, is not there everywhere. It is there only in a few States. In Jammu & Kashmir, the Jammu & Kashmir Police as well as, initially, the BSF and the CRPF were the forces which were helping the Jammu & Kashmir Government in maintaining the law and order over there. In Assam also, the Army and the Paramilitary forces are helping the Government. In Manipur too, they are helping the Government in this manner. So, if the Army is there, if the paramilitary forces are there and if the State Police is there, there should be a machinery to coordinate their activities. So, in order to see to it that that kind of coordination is achieved, the concept of having a Unified Command is accepted. That Unified Command is chaired, generally, by the Chief Minister of that State and the Chief Minister coordinates the activities.

An hon. Member has suggested that the paramilitary forces should be allowed to use civil aviation facilities like aircraft, etc. Now, we are accepting this principle to the extent possible. This kind of assistance has already been given; this kind of assistance is given to the Army; this kind of assistance is given to some paramilitary forces also in some areas. But depending upon the availability of aircraft, etc., this kind of facility will be given to them. One of the very good points which has been made by the hon. Member from Goa is regarding food material. Quality food material should be provided to them and we have made some special arrangement for this purpose. It was suggested that the paramilitary forces should not be used for the maintenance of law and order. Sir, I have explained it in this House, not once but many times, that the main task which is performed by the paramilitary forces is that of guarding the borders of India. The paramilitary forces are helping the State Police in some areas but that is not their main task and that is not their main responsibility. They remain standing; more than 70 to 80 per cent of these people remain standing while guarding our borders. Now, 30 per cent of them are helping the State Governments in the maintenance of law and order. We are not allowing them to interfere in the State machinery. We are not allowing them to interfere in any manner with the State Governments' activities in maintaining the law and order. But when they ask for assistance, we do send some forces to help them in the maintenance of law and order. This is not realised. Anything happening anywhere is now becoming the responsibility of the Union Government and, unfortunately, we are asked to explain this; and we explain this. Unfortunately, most of the Members do not realise that we have no right to go there on our own and interfere in the matter. We go there only when we are invited. Or, by imposing the President's Rule we can go there. Now, this is not realised. I have been repeating it. These kinds of discussions were not allowed to take place in the House in the past. Such discussions were allowed in the State Legislatures. But now that they are allowed, we are replying to them and we will continue to reply to these kinds of discussions if they are allowed. But this is the real and the correct position and that is why I am in a position to say that we are very sparingly allowing the paramilitary forces to be used by the State Governments to maintain the law and order and the paramilitary forces are not used for maintaining the law and order everywhere and generally. Now, this is what I just wanted to say. I don't think, Sir, I have to say anything more on this. All the hon. Members have supported this Bill. (Contd. by 2p/kgg)

kgg/2p/2.10

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (contd.): One issue was raised relating to Nepal. Nepal border is also very long. One of the difficulties with the Nepal border is that we are freely allowed to go to Nepal and they are allowed to come in freely. It is not possible for us to stop anybody coming here or going there if they are coming and going without papers. But we are trying to increase the number of posts on the Nepal border and the Bhutan border also. We are trying to increase the patrolling in that area. The SSB is going to raise a few more battalions and when they are raised, it will be possible for us to reduce the distance between the posts and it will be possible for us to provide better border guarding facility in that area.

This is what I just wanted to say. I do not think I have to say anything more than this. All the hon. Members have supported this Bill. I would like, once again, to thank the hon. Members for supporting this Bill. (Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The question is:

That the Bill to provide for the constitution and regulation of an

armed force of the Union for ensuring the security of the borders of India and for matters connected therewith, be taken into consideration.

 

The motion was adopted.

 

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill. There is one Amendment (No. 3) to clause 2 by the Minister.

CLAUSE 2: Definitions

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I beg to move:

 

3. That at page 2, for lines 21 to 23, the following be substituted, namely:-

'(i) "enemy" includes all armed mutineers, armed rebels, armed

rioters, pirates, terrorists and any person in arms against whom it

is the duty of any person subject to this Act to take action;'.

 

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

Clause 2, as amended, was added to the Bill.

Clauses 3 to 5 were added to the Bill.

 

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There is one Amendment No.4 to clause 6 by the Minister.

CLAUSE 6: Enrolment

 

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I beg to move:

 

4. That at page 4, for lines 5 to 9, the following be substituted, namely:-

"6. The persons to be enrolled to the Force, the

mode of enrolment and the procedure for

enrolment shall be such as may be prescribed.".

 

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

Clause 6, as amended, was added to the Bill.

Clauses 7 to 156 were added to the Bill.

 

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There is one Amendment No.2 to clause 1, by the Minister.

CLAUSE 1: Short title and commencement

 

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I beg to move:

 

(1)                That at page 1, line 4, for the figure "2006" the figure "2007" be

substituted.

 

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

Clause 1, as amended, was added to the Bill.

 

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There is Amendment No.1 to the Enacting Formula by the Minister.

ENACTING FORMULA

 

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I beg to move:

 

(3)    That at page 1, line 1, for the word "Fifty-seventh" the word

"Fifty-eighth" be substituted.

 

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

The Enacting Formula, as amended, was added to the Bill.

The Title was added to the Bill.

 

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I move:

That the Bill be passed.

 

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

(Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences and the Post-Graduate Institute of Medical Education and Research (Amendment) Bill, 2007. (Interruptions) The hon. Chairman has allotted one hour for this Bill.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: No, no, Sir. (Interruptions)

SHRI SURENDRA LATH: No, Sir, it cannot be introduced in the House. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Why not? (Interruptions) The hon. Chairman has allotted time, the Bill has been listed, now we will take it up for consideration. (Interruptions)

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, this is bulldozing the House. Rajya Sabha cannot transact business like this. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is your view. (Interruptions)

(Followed by kls/2q)

2Q/HMS-KLS/2.15

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Everything is according to rules...(Interruptions)... You cannot do that. ...(Interruptions)... It is not possible. ...(Interruptions)... You cannot do like this. ...(Interruptions)... No, you cannot do that. ...(Interruptions)... Motion moved. ....(Interruptions)...

DR. V. MAITREYAN: It is not on the agenda. .... ֻօ ...(־֮֬)...

 

THE ALL INDIA INSTITUTE OF MEDICAL SCIENCES AND THE POST-GRADUATE INSTITUTE OF MEDICAL EDUCATION AND RESEARCH (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2007

 

THE MINISTER OF HEALTH AND FAMILY WELFARE (DR. ANBUMANI RAMDOSS): Sir, I beg to move:

That the Bill further to amend the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences Act, 1956 and the Post-Graduate Institute of Medical Education and Research, Chandigarh, Act, 1966, as passed by Lok Sabha be taken into consideration.

 

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

 

...(Interruptions)...

 

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is not additional agenda and everything is according to rules. ...(Interruptions)... That is your opinion. ....(Interruptions)... You can start it. ...(Interruptions)... There is one amendment by Shrimati Najma Heptulla, Shri Amar Singh, and Shri Kalraj Mishra for reference of the Bill to Select Committee of Rajya Sabha. ...(Interruptions)... Members may move the amendment. ...(Interruptions)... Members refuse to move the amendment. ...(Interruptions)... The Motion for consideration of Bill has been moved and now it is open for discussion. ...(Interruptions)... Shrimati Brinda Karat. ...(Interruptions)... Shri Mangani Lal Mandal....(Interruptions)...

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, this is not fair. ...(Interruptions).. This is democracy. ...(Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : ? This is not democracy. ...(Interruptions)...

פݾֵ֕ : ָ, ֈ ָָ ֻ֟ ...(־֮֬)...

0 0 ֮ : ָ, ֕ ...(־֮֬)... ֈ ֵ ֤ personal agenda ׻֋ ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֯ן : ײֻ ׻Ù ...(־֮֬)...

פݾֵ֕ : ?

ֳ֯ן : ־֮Դ ׻Ù ײ֮֕ ֲ ײ֮֕ ֈ ...(־֮֬)... The business which the Government wants to take up, they have informed about it.... (Interruptions)... The Government has informed that this Bill will be taken up. ...(Interruptions)... Your agitation is not in order. ...(Interruptions)...Everything is in order. ...(Interruptions)... ֟ ׮֋, ֟ ׮֋, ֟ ? You please sit down. ...(Interruptions)... That is your definition. ...(Interruptions)... Who is the deciding authority? ...(Interruptions)... The deciding authority in this House is to be determined by vote. ...(Interruptions)...You ask for vote, when it comes for vote, you do it. ...(Interruptions)... When the Motion comes for vote, you do it. ...(Interruptions)... That is your decision. .... (Interruptions)... It is not my decision. ...(Interruptions)... Why are you agitating? ...(Interruptions)...

פݾֵ֕ : ָ ...(־֮֬)... ָ , , ֯ ֕ ֟ ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ־֮Դ ֲ ֈ , the list of business ...(Interruptions)...000 ...(Interruptions)... ײֻ 000 it is only for the fixing up the time and the BAC authorises the Chairman. The Chairman has fixed the time of one hour. That is why it is in order. Your agitation is not in order. ...(Interruptions)... ֟ ׮֋ ...(Interruptions)... ֯ ׻֋ ֟ ׮֋, ֯ at least ֟ , ֯ ֟ ? Please sit down. ...(Interruptions)...That is your definition. ...(Interruptions)... No, no, who is the deciding authority? ...(Interruptions)... ֯ ײֻ ָ ֟ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)... ײֻ ײֻ 000 ׻Ù only time fixation ׻֋ the Chairman has fixed one hour time. ...(Interruptions)... (2 ָ/֕ ָ ֿ:)

SSS-KLG/2R/2.20

DR. V. MATIREYAN: We did not agree with this Bill in the BAC. Let the BAC decide tomorrow. ,...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: ׻ֵ , ֮֯ ֮ I ...(־֮֬) ... I requested you to move the motion. You moved the motion and then you wanted to go to the Select Committee. Let the House decide it. (Interruptions) You have moved the motion. (Interruptions) Mr. Narayanasamy.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY (PUDUCHERRY): Sir,...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: ֤ ..(־֮֬).. ײֻ ָ ֯ ֟ , ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ߕ, ֮ ֟ ֤ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ֮ ֟ ֋ ..(־֮֬)... It is not for me...(Interruptions)... You see, it is not for me, Mr. Ahluwalia. What is the hurry? The Government should decide. How can the Chair decide? The Government knows their business. I am taking the House into confidence. (Interruptions) I am taking the House into confidence. My duty is to see that whatever is listed in the agenda is done. (Interruptions) Parliament is deciding the fate of so many things. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, the delay...(Interruptions)... in the Lok Sabha...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: , AIIMS , , It is a law. You are enacting a law. If you have your way to speak, you speak. ֯ ֮ ֟ ו֋ ..(־֮֬)... ׻ֵ , ...(־֮֬).. Nothing will go on record. (Interruptions) .. ׮֋, ֮ ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ? ..(־֮֬).. If you want to speak, you speak. No legislation can be stopped in this way. You have to use your right of vote. You can't stop like this...(Interruptions)... It is the duty of the Chair to adjourn. .(Interruptions)... ֯ ֮ ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ָ ..(־֮֬) If we have to adjourn we will do it. You want to give up your right of speaking and right of participation? (Interruptions) ... ֟ ? ..(־֮֬).. ִ֮֮ , ֯ ִ֮֮߅ ...(־֮֬).. Nothing will go on record. (Followed by NBR/2S)


-SSS/NBR-AKA/2S/2.25.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You cannot stall the House like this...(Interruptions)...How can you stall the House?..(Interruptions)... ֯ כ ו֋ օ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir,...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. Mr. Pani, you cannot prevent a Member from speaking...(Interruptions)...The House is adjourned for fifteen minutes.

*****

The House then adjourned at twenty-six minutes past

two of the clock.

USY/2.40/2t

The House re-assembled at forty-one minutes past two

of the clock, THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN) in the Chair.

_____

 

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): The House is adjourned for half-an-hour. _____

The House then adjourned at forty-one minutes past

two of the clock.

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