PREVIOUS HOUR

TDB-SC/3O/5.00

DR. V. MAITREYAN (CONTD.): If the US interferes in our affairs even before the Deal goes through, I shudder to imagine what might be the US diktats once the draconian provisions of the Hyde Act comes into effect.

Now, Sir, I shall explain, very briefly, some of the issues. I will not go into the details because, as I said, people are not concerned about it nowadays. Ever since Independence, successive Prime Ministers of our country have very clearly held the view that India should be self-reliant, as far as nuclear energy is concerned. There is no dearth of knowledge, equipment, raw material or recycling technology vis-a-vis the nuclear energy in India. The atom bomb is developed from the atomic waste. For India to emerge as a super-power in nuclear energy, the Atomic Energy Department should be made fully independent in its functions as well as it should be self-reliant. However, there are very deleterious clauses in this Agreement, which work against India's sovereignty. Our research centres, our atomic plants, our atomic power processing, i.e., most of our atomic waste after use will all come under the supervisory control of the US. As also the provisions for the inspection and information-gathering, as far as this nuclear capability is concerned. Thus, America has positioned itself as a master vis-a-vis the Nuclear Agreement. The reason given by the Government that raw material for atomic plants in India is very scarce, is a very lame and feeble excuse, which is not convincing and not accepted by our scientists. It is very pertinent to point out here that the former President of our country, Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam had mentioned about the use of thorium, which is available in plenty in the Southern coastal areas. Sir, in the Agreement, there are clauses enabling the US in interfering with regard to our future atomic research, raw material research and future production of atomic weaponry. This Nuclear Deal not only interferes with regard to the production of atom bomb for India's military purposes, but also with reference to the nuclear power plants for civilian use, because at every stage, there is some supervisory control. Hence, this Agreement cannot be considered as an Agreement between the two countries with equal status and rights.

Sir, in this Agreement, again, there are certain provisions which dictate how India should behave with other countries vis-a-vis the nuclear power. America has already shattered and swallowed Iraq. Because of the nuclear power programme, North Korea is being threatened day in and day out. There are reports of US trying to invade Iran. In this situation, why should India, out of our own volition, take over to the American over-lordship, thereby inviting danger to ourselves? Two recent incidents are worth-mentioning here. Of course, the Prime Minister gave the reply... (Time-bell) Sir, I said, '5.06', and definitely, I will conclude before that. Recently, the Prime Minister was on a visit to Russia. An agreement between the Government of India and the Government of Russia was ready, just to be inked. Suddenly, the Prime Minister seems to have backtracked. Why? He may deny it, but the country knows that it was because of the US pressure. Similarly, the ISRO was to launch a spy satellite for Israel on 3rd November. The satellite had reached ISRO. But, on the d-day, at the last minute, the launch was called off. The media reports linked this launch-cancellation to US pressure. The Nuclear Deal, if it goes through, will only make us 'ji-hazoors' of the US-master. From the time the first atomic plant was set up in Tarapore, this was succeeded by various atomic plants, and all are functioning well. And, they bear testimony to the extraordinary achievement of the Indian scientists. The unpalatable truth of this Agreement is that America will not supply to India new methods in technology for production of materials for atomic power, raw material and heavy water used in the process, but will supply only finished products. That being so, where is the need for this Agreement?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please conclude.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: As India has already moved forward in the field of nuclear energy, our Indian scientists' research capacity could be eroded by this Deal, since India will become a consumer nation thwarting the research psyche. Why should US be allowed to inspect our nuclear plants? Will US allow us to inspect their nuclear plants? Thus, this Agreement is a master-slave charter, and not an agreement between two countries of equal status. And that is why Madam Jayalalitha and the AIADMK are strongly opposed to it. To conclude, the sense of the House is very clear and obvious. If the hon. Prime Minister is not able to read it, then the only course left to him is to ascertain the sense of the nation. For that, he has to go to the people. ֲ ֯ ־ ֮ ָ ִ ֤ ֯ ӟָ֕ ֯ ָ , ß ָ֟

־ֻ ָ ֻ֟

(ִ֯)

(3- ָ ֿ:)

kgg/3p/5.05

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (NOMINATED): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, we started with Mr. Sitaram Yechury, went through Mr. Yashwant Sinha, and this the fifth or the sixth speech that is being delivered. Sir, I was wondering with whom I should start. I have decided to follow the alphabetical order and Amar Singh tops the list. Sir, even he would vouch the feelings of friendship and affection that I have for him. Whatever he said about the deal, I will forgive because he said that he was educated by the Left. But, Sir, his message was very clear. That message......

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, one second. According to the alphabetical order I will come at the last. Before that you please press the bell and ask him to sit down!

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I will really deal with you at the last! Sir, the message was that those whose duty it was to explain the deal have failed in their duty to explain it properly and adequately. Sir, I find great substance in what he said and I personally think that our very distinguished Minister should be present here, but his assistant is present here; he should take charge of his erstwhile pupil and properly educate him in the utility of this deal. But I admire Mr. Amar Singh for having kept his mind open because he says that he is subject to the effect of further education being imparted to him and, Mr. Amar Singh, thank you for that.

SHRI AMAR SINGH: No, Sir, I did not say that. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I merely said that the message is clear. You do not understand......

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Please do not misunderstand. I have said that this is not an honourable deal for the nation and that there was no communication at least of our side with the Government. The deal is not honourable for the nation.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I agree with you. This is exactly what I have said. The fault is with the Government which have not explained to you properly what this deal means.

Sir, everybody has been saying, taking into account the numbers, that the Government should heed the majority opinion in this House. Sir, it is true that Parliament is the political sovereign of this country. But it cannot be forgotten that ultimately there is another sovereign of this country who is superior to this legal sovereign and that is the people of India. My friend called it the aam admi, I accept his thesis of aam admi, but I do not accept his reading of the aam admi's mind. I am sure, he is not in touch with the aam admi at all. (Interruptions)

DR. V. MAITREYAN: But, about Pokhran......

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: You are right, we will talk of Pokhran-III in 4 or 5 minutes. I do not know how you got this infection from them! (Interruptions) But, Sir, if people think or any political party thinks, that this deal is very detrimental to the nation, that it means complete surrender of sovereignty, India becoming subordinate of the U.S., they should be prepared to go to the people of India. You cannot say to the BJP, like Sitaram said this morning that you are trying to ride piggy-back and to get into that position. Of course, Sir, everybody wants to get into that position. Even Sitaram wants one day, if he can he will do it.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: With your help! (Followed by kls/3q)

KLS/3Q-5.10

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: You will need my help...(Interruptions)... If you are in the right line, you will always have my help and on good issues you will always have my help. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, therefore, nobody on a matter of vital importance like this should suppress his real conscience and think about whether it will mean dissolution of the House or whether it will mean going to he people. After all, elections are going to take place in this country in 2009 and, Sir, if they take place a year earlier, I do not think it is going to be a great loss for this country. But, Sir, democracy would have succeeded. Let us see whom the aam aadmi of this country supports. If people were sure of what the aam aadmi is doing, they would have seen to it that the House is dissolved. But nobody wants dissolution because nobody is sure what aam aadmi is going to do ultimately. Sir, there are some basic facts which must be understood. Who went about looking for nuclear know-how and nuclear fuel? Did he Americans come to you and say, "Please take from us nuclear know-how or nuclear fuel"? Or were we going round the world and did not succeed in getting what we wanted to buy in the market? Sir, I regret that Ihave to utilise for my argument something which my very, very dear friend Jaswant said in an article which appeared on the 10th of December, 2003 in the Indian Express and I hope that my friend will recall that he had written that article. "The irony is that our concerns regarding non-proliferation, environmental degradation, nuclear safety and so on are no different from those of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, NSG." This was an appeal to the NSG that please lift these restrictions which all 45 of you have imposed upon this country and denying us nuclear know-how, nuclear fuel for the purpose of production of electricity which will allow our industry to go on, will allow to compete in this WTO and globalisation phenomenon that is taking place. In a world of tremendous competition we are not able to compete. Our industry will come to an end. That is why we went to the NSG and this is an appeal from the BJP leadership to the NSG. What comes in the way is the issue of our nuclear weapons acquired for our security. Without violating any international law or our own commitment to it, Sir, I have no doubt at all, he was absolutely right that when in 1974 we had an explosion or in 1998 when we had our another nuclear explosion, Sir, we had not committed a breach of any treaty obligation because we had not signed the NPT at all and we were under no obligation of any kind. Whatever weapons we had acquired was the work of our scientists for which they need to be complimented. Sir, we had committed no breach of any law. But, now, Sir, if human development of a billion people and the market it represents for developed economies has to progress, in other words, if the human development of India has to go on with any sense of priority, then a fresh look at the question of access to clean, affordable nuclear energy becomes an imperative. This was an appeal to the suppliers of the world, 45 of them, including Russia. Sir, it is true that Russians have been our friends. The Russians did breach the sanctions, which were imposed upon us for our benefit. But it was a pittance. They supplied to us, --Sir, if somebody who is in a position to deny this statement of mine -- at some long intervals thousand kilograms of heavy water at a time, that is all the help that we received from our Russian friends for all that we have done for the Soviet Union in the past.

(Contd by 3R)

SSS/3R/5.15

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): But, Sir, even they did not cooperate because they too are a nuclear power and they belong to the club of nuclear powers, the fire ones who control the entire nuclear wherewithal of the whole world. This would require some changes in the working guidelines of the suppliers to deal with issues on a case-by-case basis. India, obviously, -- Sir, please understand this line, I want the BJP Members to be reminded of this; this is a statement by your great representative -- would have no objection to placing such reactors under international inspection and safeguards at length. Sir, I do not wish to say more. I spent the whole of yesterday in the library going through the speech of the Leader of the Opposition in the Lok Sabha. I presume, Mr. Yashwant Sinha, is not striking out a new line of thought. Sir, that speech contains five elements two of which I fully agree with. His first was, 'we are not against any strategic partnership with the US'. So, Sir, my friend Amar Singh is wrong that this Government has succeeded in making Sitaram, Amar Singh and Yashwant Sinha speak with one voice. There are different voices but on some points, you are using only a similarity of words but your ideas, your philosophy and what you intend to convey to the people of this country are totally in contradiction because the BJP says that we are not against any strategic partnership with the US. My friend Sitaram would never accept this proposition; nor would Amar Singh with his education coming from these two sources.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: I actually said so, that they are strategic legislators.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I have a little bit of knowledge of English. So, I understand what is going on in the House. Secondly, he said that the Left and the UPA Committee which has been formed for this purpose is useless. I entirely agree. How would they arrive at the solution of the problem? Their positions are well known. Their ideologies are well known. They are not going to flinch from these ideologies ever. They will have to be reincarnated before they do it and, Sir, I agree that they are also entitled to cling on to their ideologies however outdated they are. But, the BJP leaders are right that this Committee which has been formed is a surplus, is a redundancy, is thoroughly useless. It will achieve no purpose. It was not intended to reach any confusion at all. Sir, then, the third point, which he made, was Pokhran III with which my friends here are impressed. Sir, I have gone through the deal, the 123 deal, word by word, not once, but ten times. I have studied it and I have studied it as I would study my text book in the law examination. Nowhere does the 123 agreement, at all, say that you cannot have your Pokhran III. All that it says is that if and when, in your wisdom, you decide to connect Pokhran III, we also exercise our sovereignty. We are also a sovereign nation. We are also equal partners. If you have a right to explode a bomb, we will also have the right to say that hereafter, we won't give your supplies.

(Contd. by NBR/3S)

-SSS/NBR-SCH/3S/5.20.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): Nothing at all. What it means is that you will go back to the same position in which you are in the year 2007, the month of November or December. That is all ...(Interruptions)...Now, I wish to ask a question. And, this is a question which has got to be answered with all conscience and with all tender. When we did the Pokhran-II, why did you, within the next one week, announced to the whole world, a unilateral moratorium on further tests? Who asked you to do it? You knew that no tests are necessary at this time. You don't want more nuclear power to combat Pakistan. Pakistan is too weak. We don't have to make any preparation. In conventional forces, we are ten times superior to Pakistan. Pakistan, today, is almost a failed State, a phenomenon which I don't enjoy. I want Pakistan to grow in prosperity and strength so that we have good friends and powerful friends on our side, but not hostile friends. But, Sir, Pakistan has hardly anything. They have got some stolen technology. Mr. Quadir Khan went and stole from his Dutch employer. He brought it here. He then borrowed something from China. The Chinese gave Pakistan a nuclear know-how. At that time, nobody protested against China. But, Sir, that is the way of world.

Sir, when do you -- Mr. Yashwant Sinha is not here, he should answer this question to his conscience or, at least, to the people of India -- propose to enact this Pokhran-II? When? Against whom? Not against Pakistan. Pakistan is too weak to deserve that kind of an attention. Are you going to do it against China? Does the Left want that one day we will have fight with China...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHAHEED SIDDIQUI: That is not against anybody ...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): No. Mr. Siddiqui ...(Interruptions)...You can reply when your turn comes ...(Interruptions)...No interruptions, please...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: You don't make atomic and nuclear weapons for the joy of keeping them. They are not toys to be kept in a children's nursery. They are meant for war. They are meant either for a defensive war or for an aggressive war. They are for war, war and war. It is not a toy to keep in a children's nursery.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, will you yield for a minute?

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I will yield ten times for you.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, Mr. Jethmalani has said that Left endorsed it. Let me put the record straight that we had opposed the Pokhran-II. We do not want nuclear weapons not only in India but anywhere in the world. We want universal disarmament. We do not want nuclear weapons with the USA, with China, with Russia, or with India. We do not want them anywhere.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sitaram, did I ever charge you with inconsistency? Your trouble is too much consistency. You will not change.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Definitely; for the better.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Now, Sir, I do not envisage that in the near future that we need to have any atomic or nuclear weapons. If that situation arises, be sure, that the world democracies will come to our help and we will not have to rely on our own strength.

Sir, let us not forget some inconvenient facts of history. We were attacked in 1962. It was the most humiliating aggression committed against us. Read the Resolution of Parliament which was passed after 1962. All Members of both the Houses unanimously passed a Resolution in which we have said that India is the victim of unprovoked aggression. 93,000 sq. miles of our territory is under the possession of Chinese. And, no Indian shall rest until the last square inch is obtained from Chinese and regained from Chinese. Sir, not only we have not been able to get one square inch from Chinese, but, today, we have totally surrendered our markets to the Chinese and there is nobody to protest against this economic aggression which is going on. Our markets have been taken over. But, we are a nation in which our Ministers of Defence make excuses for acts of aggression against us. The worthy newspapers report that there have been attacks and aggressive attacks in Arunachal Pradesh. (CONTD. BY VP "3T")

VP/PSV/5.25/3T

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): And, our Minister says that these are as a result of the misunderstanding about the border. What misunderstanding about the border? Why do you want to make excuses for the Chinese? Have we also, by mistake, gone into their territory? Why is it that they are, all the time, coming into our territory? Why is there nobody to protest against what China is doing to us? On the contrary, we are only and only protecting Chinese interests in this House, and not the Indian interests at all. Sir, China is too powerful for us to run a nuclear race with them. We cannot do it. The Russian's bankrupted themselves, and brought about an end of the Soviet Empire by trying to run a nuclear race with the Americans. If we do that, the same fate will overtake us. Our security lies in a fact which was propounded as far back as 200 years ago by the German Immanuel Kant that democracies of the world must unite; only when the world becomes democratic, and democracies put their moral, spiritual and physical resources together, then, the world will be safe from aggression and war.

And, Sir, for the first time, I am sorry to digress. That smirk on your face titillates me a little. Sir, you remember that Leonardo da Vinci produced his masterpiece called, 'Mona Lisa.' It is now in the Louvre Museum in Paris. I hope hon. Members have had the good fortune to have a look at it. Sir, there was some novice who did not know anything about art; some novice like me. I have nothing at all of artist in me. I have examined the seven-generation family tree of mine, there has not been one painter. But, Sir, a novice, a fool like me, went over to Leonardo Da Vinci and said that I want you to repaint this picture. He said, 'Do you want me to repaint this picture?' What is it that you want me to change? He said, "I want to get rid of that smirk; that smile on the face of Mona Lisa." And, it is the smile, Sir, which has titillated millions of human beings. It is a smile which has excited millions of people the world over; the lovers of art and aesthetics. But, Sir, a fool like me said, "I want this to be reprinted again." And, the BJP leadership says the same thing. We like this deal, but, we want it to be renegotiated so that it should not be the product of Manmohan Singh; it should not be the product of Manmohan Singh painting. It should not be the real Leonardo who deserved credit for it; but, somebody, who wants a reprint of that Mona Lisa. Sir, I have said before, and I wish to repeat it that nothing better has happened in the history of India for the last 50 years that this deal ..(Interruptions)..

ӡ ( ֻ ֤): ָ, ֮ ָ ִ ֮ ֮ և ...(־֮֬)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): No; please sit down. ..(Interruptions).. Yes, you speak please. ..(Interruptions).. և ״ֻ ֵ ...(־֮֬)... , և ״ֻ ֵօ ...(־֮֬)... ֙ և פ ֵօ ...(־֮֬)... ֯ ך ...(־֮֬)... Mr. Jothi, sit down. ..(Interruptions)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ו֮ ѓ ״֮֙ և , 20 ״֮֙ ֮ פ ֵ, ֮ ? ...(־֮֬)... ֲ , ָ ...(־֮֬)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: RJD Party's time is also given to you. ..(Interruptions).. Please take your seat. ..(Interruptions).. Mr. Jothi, please sit down. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI N. JOTHI: Why have you become so chicken-hearted today? ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jothi, there is no time. ..(Interruptions).. Mr. Ram Jethmalani, please continue and try to wind up also. Please continue. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, a question is being asked today. Why have the Americans suddenly become friendly to India? It is because, Sir, the criticism that has been made of the poor Americans throughout the world..(Interruptions)..

SHRIRMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, poor Americans, poor Bush! ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That is his terminology. (Followed by PK/3U)

PK/3U/5.30

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): That is his terminology...(Interruptions).. Please, please. That is his terminology. Don't worry about that. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, it is true that Mr. Bush is not popular in his own country.

AN HON. MEMBER: Like you...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I don't care. (Interruptions). At this age, I don't need popularity. ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jothi, don't make such comments please ..(Interruptions).. Please don't make such comments. Now, Mr. Jethmalani, please proceed. (Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: When you could not get from the Nuclear Suppliers Group, it is interesting to know that in 1998, then, again, in 1999, then, in 2000, on the occasion of Clinton's visit, it was conveyed to him by Shri Jaswant Singh who was put in charge of negotiations with the USA, that Prime Minister Vajpayee had made an irreversible decision to sign the CTBT. It was the question of how and when to make that decision public. Always pleading that they were only worried about the political management of that decision. So, Sir, so far as the BJP is concerned, be sure, that they are not the real opponents of the Deal at all. They like this Deal; that is why, they say, "We want to renegotiate the Deal." " We want to renegotiate the deal means" nothing at all; this is just power politics which is going on. Sir, I am glad that Shri Yashwant Sinha has now arrived. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: What is your politics, Ram? You are always in the middle. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: No, never; my politics is very clear. I am an inveterate, undoubted, friend of the United States. (Interruptions).. Because the United States is a democracy. (Interruptions).. It is a democracy. Its (Interruptions) human rights, its constitutional values are the constitutional values of India. (Interruptions)..

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir.. (Interruptions),,

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please, please. (Interruptions).. Mr. Jothi, please take your seat. That is his position. (Interruptions). Why do you worry? (Interruptions).. That is his position. (Interruptions). See, you can be anti-American; he can be pro-American. (Interruptions).. Please, please. Mr. Siddiqui. (Interruptions).. There is paucity of time. (Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I don't .. (Interruptions)... I don't pretend. (Interruptions). I am an open book. (Interruptions)..

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, within minutes, Mr. Jothi will speak. (Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Do you want to give your time to Mr. Jothi? (Interruptions)..

SHRI ARUN SHOURIE: Actually speaking, Sir, Mr. Ram Jethmalani is only obeying the rules of the House, which require that if we have an interest in a matter, we must declare it first. So, he is declaring his interest. He is an inveterate supporter.

(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: The only thing is that I have always been complaining that in this country there are private pornographers who pretend to be public purists. (Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Now, please come to the subject.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am being diverted from all sides. (Interruptions).. Sir, my position is very clear that when we were attacked in 1962, there were only two countries which, within the next 48 hours, gave us moral, military, diplomatic support and one of them was America. No Communist country supported us at that time. No non-secular country has supported us at this time. We have reason to be grateful because American planes and wherewithal landed at Delhi Airport within 48 hours of that. (Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please, please. (Interruptions)..

DR. FAROOQ ABDULLAH: What about Bagdad Pact? What about CENTO? What about SEATO? Were they in favour of India? (Interruptions).. (Followed by SKC/3W)

3w/5.35/skc-klg

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am glad that my friend, Dr. Farooq, has raised this question. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAVI SHANKAR PRASAD: What about Nixon? ...(Interruptions)...Please explain that also...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, there are two questions which have been asked and I propose to answer both of them.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please come to the subject. ...(Interruptions)...There is paucity of time. ..(Interruptions)..

DR. FAROOQ ABDULLAH: What did Nixon say about Mrs. Indira Gandhi, which is printed in a book?...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: You have asked a specific question and I would reply to it within two minutes. ...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please come to the subject. ...(Interruptions)...You need not reply to them. Please come to the subject. ..(Interruptions)..

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, opponents must also be given full time. ...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. There is paucity of time. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, please clarify who all have given their time to Shri Ram Jethmalani. ..(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. There is paucity of time. ...(Interruptions)...Don't divert his attention. Let him speak...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, you must clarify...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I am on my legs. Please sit down. (Interruptions)...I am on my legs. Please sit down. (Interruptions) You should know the rules of the House. Please sit down; I am on my legs..(Interruptions).. There is paucity of time and therefore, don't disturb...(Interruptions)...

0 ִ ӛָ : ָ, ו֮ ו֮֟ և , ֲ֮ ֮ օ ױ ׻֋ ? ֮ ו ...(־֮֬)... ֱ ֵ , ֲ ֮ פ ֵ ..(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Shrimati Brinda Karat, what is your problem? ..(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I just want to know which parties have given their time to Shri Ram Jethmalani. ..(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): I will tell you that. Please sit down..(Interruptions)...

0 ִ ӛָ : ֙ ־ֻ , ֲ և ״ֻ ...(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please..(Interruptions)...Please. Mr. Amar Singh...(Interruptions)...

ָ : ֯ ? ...(־֮֬)... ָ ֈ ֻ ..(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please leave it to me..(Interruptions)...Leave it to me. ..(Interruptions)...

ָ : ֯ , ֮ ֯ ֈ ֻ ? ...(־֮֬)... ֈ ֻ֮, ֻ֋Ӆ ...(־֮֬)

SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: Everybody must be allowed to speak. ..(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I have sought a clarification. ..(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Let me tell you...(Interruptions)...I will tell you. I am on the Chair. Please sit down...(Interruptions)..I will tell you. Please sit down. Please listen. Everybody was given time. For example, if three minutes were allotted to a party, that party was given 15 minutes.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, which Member has spoken for three minutes? ...(interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. I am standing. Know the rules. ...(Interruptions)...Please sit down. You must know the rules. I am standing...(Interruptions)...At least, know the rules. Please sit down. I am on my legs. ..(Interruptions).. Now, please listen, since you have raised the question. Only 15 minutes were meant to be given to him. But when I was about to stop him, the Members of the RJD party, which has got five minutes, stood up and said that their time may also be given to him...(Interruptions)...

0 ִ ӛָ : ֲֻ֟ 25 ״֮֙ ..(־֮֬)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please, let me explain. ..(Interruptions)...Every party has been given three times and four times of their allotted time.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: No, Sir. My party had been allotted six minutes but you gave me only 12 minutes to speak...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: No, you said you wanted 15 minutes...(Interruptions)...No, you said that you wanted only 15 minutes but I gave you 16 minutes. What is this?...(Interruptions)...Please. Mr. Maitreyan wanted 15 minutes and I gave him 16 minutes. You had said that you wanted only 15 minutes and so, I stood by that.

(Contd. by 3x/hk)

HK-AKA/5.40/3x

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): He got 25 minutes. ..(Interruptions).. You please conclude now. ..(Interruptions).. Please conclude. ..(Interruptions).. He has the right to say what he wants to say. ..(Interruptions).. Please allow him. ..(Interruptions).. You can object. ..(Interruptions).. You can object to it when your chance comes. ..(Interruptions).. Why are you disturbing? ..(Interruptions).. You conclude also. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I will first answer two questions raised. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: How much time? ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE- CHAIRMAN: What are you doing, Brindaji? ..(Interruptions).. Amar Singhji, please. ..(Interruptions)..

ָ : ָ, ֻ֟ ߕ This is injustice. ߟִָ ֮ פ ֵ, ֲ ָ - ֤õ , ֮ ֟ , 45 ״֮֙ ..(־֮֬)..

(MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair.)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, sit down. ..(Interruptions)..

ק : ִֵ ָ-ָ ә ֕և ևԅ ..(־֮֬).. ָ ֮ פ ֵ ..(־֮֬)..

شری شاہد صدیقی : ان کے سمے بار بار گھنٹی بجائی گئی ۔۔مداخلت۔۔ امر سنگھہ جی کو بولنے نہیں دیا گیا ۔۔مداخلت۔۔

ָ : ߟִָ , ָ ֮ פ ֵօ ..(־֮֬).. ֮ ..(־֮֬)

ֳ֯ : ָ , ך ..(־֮֬).. ֯ և ..(־֮֬).. We will sort it out. ..(Interruptions)..

ָ : ? ..(־֮֬).. ָ ׻֋ ә ֕և ֟ , Why is this discrimination? ..(Interruptions)..

ֳ֯ : ָ , ֵօ ֯ ך ..(־֮֬)..

ָ : ։ ֱ ָָ ׻֋ ? ..(־֮֬).. ֮ ֮ פ ֵ, ֮ פ ֵ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ֯ כ ..(־֮֬).. I will look into it.

ָ : ָ, ֯ ׮ ו ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ֯ և ..(־֮֬).. ߕ և ..(־֮֬).. ״0 ֮ ..(־֮֬).. Amar Singhji, you have registered your protest, I will look into it. ..(Interruptions).. ֯ և ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI N. JOTHI: I have a point of order. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please go to your seat. ..(Interruptions).. Please go to your seat and then raise the point of order. ..(Interruptions).. There is no point of order. ..(Interruptions).. Amar Singhji, please sit down. ..(Interruptions).. ֟ , ֟ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Please call Marshal, and throw me out. I want to be thrown out. What is this? ..(Interruptions).. Sitaram Yechury have got 15 MPs and I have got 16 MPs. ..(Interruptions).. Will you not allow us to speak? ..(Interruptions).. Why is this discrimination? ..(Interruptions).. Please throw us outside. ..(Interruptions)..

ֳ֯ : , ..(־֮֬).. ״Ù ָ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: He has speaking for 40 minutes. ..(Interruptions).. What is this? ..(Interruptions)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ָ, ֕ ֵ , ו֮֟ ֮ , ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : Ӥ , ך ..(־֮֬).. ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ).. ..(־֮֬).. ָ , ֯ ך ..(־֮֬)..

DR. V. MAITREYAN: How long more? ..(Interruptions)..

ֳ֯ : ֯ ך ֯ ך, ߕ ..(־֮֬).. I agree that we have to go by time. It is two-and-half-hour discussion. Every party is given time. But nobody is adhering to it. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: I did. When you told me, I stopped. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will tell you. ..(Interruptions).. ߕ, ֯ ֟ ו , ֟֟ It is not for any other purpose. I just tell you. ..(Interruptions).. You were given 36 minutes and then Mr. Yashwant Sinha was given 52 minutes. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: But what about the interventions? ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am just starting. ..(Interruptions).. I just tell you. - כ , some interest is developed.

(Contd. by 3y/KSK)

 

KSK/NB/5.45/3Y

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (CONTD): Sometimes, the Presiding Officer will have to be relaxing and I agree that we have to adhere to time...(Interruptions). Nobody is discriminated. Sometimes. ..(Interruptions). , ָ , ֯ ֲ ֟ , I have given more time because you...(Interruptions).

ָ : ָ, ֟ , - ֟ , ֮ ... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ : ֯ ֲ ֟ , ֲ ֯ ִֵ פ ֟ ... (־֮֬) כ, ֵ ... (־֮֬)

ָ : ָ ... (־֮֬).

DR. V. MAITREYAN: We should know how much time...(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Maitreyan, please finish this now...(Interruptions). I am requesting...(Interruptions). Let us not waste the time. We will see.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: For how long, will he speak?...(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, he has to finish. No question...(Interruptions). He has to finish. Mr. Jethmalani, you have to finish. Please, conclude.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Who says that I do not want to finish?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, conclude.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: For concluding also, I require a few minutes.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, conclude. I request all the Members....(Interruptions). My appeal is that there are 30 Members who have to participate in the debate. Hardly six Members have spoken. Another 24 Members have to participate. Kindly...(Interruptions).

߸ י : ָ, ָ ִֵ ֟ ו ֮ , ָ ִֵ פ ֵ ... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ : ִֵ , ק , ֲ-ֲ ִֵ ֟ , ... (־֮֬). It happens with everybody....(Interruptions).

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, kindly allow me to conclude...(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Maitreyan, please...(Interruptions). See, how much time we are wasting in this itself...(Interruptions).

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, another Member of my Party will speak....(Interruptions). We want equal justice for everybody. Another Member of my Party will also speak...(Interruptions). But, rules have to be uniform for everybody.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Maitreyan, if every Member starts directing the Chair, it will be impossible...(Interruptions). I leave it to you.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Because there is deviation...(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have no right to question.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: I am not questioning. I want similar treatment. Another Member of my Party will speak...(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You cannot say this..(Interruptions). No, I will not...(Interruptions).

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, I want your protection.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will protect everybody within the time...(Interruptions). Mr. Jethmalani, please, conclude.

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, we will not tolerate this. What is this?...(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Amar Singh, please...(Interruptions). ߸ , ך, Mr. Amar Singh is capable of putting his case. He does not need an advocate...(Interruptions).

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, do you want us to break the rule and come to the Well? The way the Chair is..(Interruptions)...I have got 16 M.P.'s. I have been discriminated. Members, who have no strength, are speaking for 50 minutes and one hour...(Interruptions). Comrade Yechury...(Interruptions). Why is this discrimination?...(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Amar Singhji, you had been given 21 minutes as against 10 minutes...(Interruptions).

SHRI AMAR SINGH: People who are against America will not be allowed to speak....(Interruptions)....

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Maitreyan, when it comes, we will see.

.. ׻ֵ : ָ, ֮֕ ... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ : ֵ ... (־֮֬) ֯ ֋ ... (־֮֬)

.. ׻ֵ : ָ, ֮֕ ֈ כ ֻ , ֯ ֻ֮ ו ו֮ ֟ discrimination , ֙ ָ ָ״֙ ׸

ֳ֯ : , , ... (־֮֬). When have we said that we will not allow them?...(Interruptions).

ָ : ׾ָ , pro-deal ֻ , ו֮֟ ָ ֯ ... (־֮֬)

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, the sense of the House is not reflected in this.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Maitreyan, everything has a limit. Everything will be all right up to a stage. Let us see...(Interruptions). ֮ accommodate ... (־֮֬)

(followed by 3z - gsp)

GSP-VNK/5.50/3z

߸ י : ָ, ָ, ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : accommodate ..(־֮֬).. Let us see. ֯ ך, ֯ ָ-ָ , , ֵ ֯ ך ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I have four points to make. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, don't answer...(Interruptions)...What is this, Jethmalaniji, you are a senior Member. Please don't do it. Let the House go on? How long will you take to conclude your speech? (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I will take ten minutes more...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, No. I cannot give that much. How much time he has taken? (Interruptions) No, no. (Interruptions) I cannot give this much time to you, Mr. Jethmalani. How many minutes has he taken? (Interruptions) How many minutes has he taken?

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I have been interrupted for about half-an-hour. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have already taken 33 minutes. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: But I have been interrupted for half-an-hour.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. You have spoken for 33 minutes. This will create problem for the Chair. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, at, least, give me...(Interruptions)...I am sorry but...(Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF CORPORATE AFFAIRS (SHRI PREM CHAND GUPTA): Sir, he has been interrupted for around half-an-hour. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: , allow the debate to go on. Debate was going on well. This is all right...(Interruptions)...

ָ : ָ, ..(־֮֬)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: ָ , ֵ, ֯ ך ..(־֮֬).. Please sit down.

ָ : ֿԻ ־ ֲ ׮־ ו ..(־֮֬)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: ? ..(־֮֬)..

THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI PRIYARANJAN DASMUNSI): Sir, you are very nicely conducting the House, I don't want to hurt any Member. My dear friend, senior leader of the Samajwadi Party, Shri Amar Singhji has expressed his anguish, and, I sincerely appreciate his anguish. Sir, I appeal to you to control the House in a manner that every party feels properly honoured and get time. Therefore, I appeal to you to conduct the House...(Interruptions)...

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Mr. Sitaram Yechury also..(Interruptions)...Not only my...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jethmalani, please conclude.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Okay, Sir, I will take one minute less. Don't worry. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This is not correct. Please conclude. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, what is this? You stop it. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I cannot do anything. What is this? Nobody is cooperating. (Interruptions) Yes, you are cooperative. , ִֵ Ù ֟ ו, ֯ ״֮֙ ֤ ו, ָ ֈ ִֵ Ù ֟ ו ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, for forty-five minutes...(Interruptions)...At least, give me five minutes to finish. Sir, the first question that I have to answer is from my friend Ravi in the BJP, who is a lawyer. Sir, he talked about Mr. Nixon and what Nixon said and did. (Interruptions) Please, Sir, listen to me. (Interruptions)

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, what is this? (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, Nixon was the President of the United States about whom I am prepared to say that he was the male gender of the word that he used for Shrimati Indira Gandhi. He has been disowned by his own people. You see where that man ultimately ended in the respect and the reverence of the American people. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAVI SHANKAR PRASAD: Sir, this is...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, my friend, Farooq..(Interruptions)...I had anticipated your question, I have not written down the answer now. But I am reading what I have written. The USA has realised the folly of SEATO and CENTO, its marriages of convenience with non-secular, primitive, backward countries governed by ruthless murderers, tyrants and others. (Contd. by sk-4a)

SK-SC/4A/5.55

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I always smile when you meet me. ...(Interruptions).. Now, Sir, so far as this inferiority and inferior partner ...(Interruptions)..

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: Sir, he has openly announced in the House that he is a pro-American. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: So, what? ...(Interruptions)..

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: He should not be allowed ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: How do you say pro-American ...(Interruptions).. He has his right ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, to the charge that India is a subordinate partner, I want to read only five lines ...(Interruptions)..

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: No, Sir ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, who is she? ...(Interruptions)..

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: This is not fair. ...(Interruptions).. This is very unfair, Sir. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: India is a leader, a great nation which, by virtue of its size, its achievements and its example, has the ability to shape the character of our time. Great nations with broad horizons must consider whether actions advance or hinder what Nehru called the larger cause of humanity. Sir, this is a tribute made to India by an American President on the very floor of this Parliament. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: Sir, he is talking only about the Americans. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I am reading Clinton's speech here. ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, conclude it now. ...(Interruptions).. Your five minutes are over. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I need two more minutes. ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This is too much. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am not his master's voice of Iran or China or Russia. ...(Interruptions).. I am a master voice of democracy and I am a master voice of the world's most powerful democracy. ...(Interruptions)..

ֳ֯ :

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, what is this? ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I cannot say what you people ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Amar Singh, I know you don't want to hear the truth ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude it. ...(Interruptions).. Please conclude. ...(Interruptions).. Please conclude Mr. Ram Jethmalani. ...(Interruptions).. Please conclude Mr. Ram Jethmalani. ...(Interruptions).. Please conclude. ...(Interruptions)..

ӡ ( ֻ ֤) : ֮ ָ ִֵ פ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ָ ִֵ ֵօ ..(־֮֬)..ֻ , ָ ֻ ӓ ״֮֙ ..(־֮֬).. ..(־֮֬)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ֲ ߮ ״֮֙ ..(־֮֬).. ӓ ״֮֙ 25 ״֮֙ ?..(־֮֬)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude Mr. Jethmalani. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am concluding but nobody is allowing me to speak. ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have taken ...(Interruptions).. I have to call the next speaker. ...(Interruptions).. I have to call the next speaker. ...(Interruptions).. Rules are applicable to everybody. ...(Interruptions).. Please conclude. ...(Interruptions).. This is going on in the House. ...(Interruptions).. Please ...(Interruptions).. Rules are applicable to everybody. ...(Interruptions).. Mr. Jethmalani, please conclude. ...(Interruptions).. Mr. Amar Singh, please cooperate. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Mr. Amar Singh, this is the second time I have seen that when I speak you find lot of ways of disturbing me. ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude it Mr. Jethmalani. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am concluding. ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please cooperate with the House. Let us run the House.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, the last point ...(Interruptions)..

(Followed by 4B)