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HK/1x/2.00

The House reassembled after lunch at two of the clock,

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair.

-------------

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we take up the Indian Rifles (Repeal) Bill, 2006.

 

THE INDIAN RIFLES (REPEAL) BILL, 2006.

 

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI SHRIPRAKASH JAISWAL): Sir, I beg to move:

That the Bill to repeal the Indian Rifles Act, 1920, be taken into consideration.

The provisions of the Act read as under:

"The Act may be called the Indian Rifles Act, 1920.

All Police Officers enrolled under the provisions of any local Military Police or Rifles Act shall be subject to the discipline and penalties prescribed by such Act, wherever serving in India."

The Indian Rifles Act, 1920 was enacted with a view to provide for better discipline of police officers enrolled in Military Police or Rifle Battalions who were enrolled under the various local Acts prevalent/applicable in different territories of pre-Independence India.

The said Act was relevant when there were many princely States in pre-partition India. At present, the Police Forces are governed either by the respective State or Union Territory Police Acts or the Indian Police Act, 1861 or by the Acts governing the Central Police Forces. As such, the Indian Rifles Act, 1920 has become obsolete. So, there is no need to keep the Act on the statute book and hence the said Act needs to be repealed.

Sir, with these few words, I commend this Bill for consideration of this august House.

The question was proposed.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The question is:

That the Bill to repeal the Indian Rifles Act, 1920, be taken into consideration.

The motion was adopted.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill.

Clause 2 was added to the Bill.

Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title were added to the Bill.

 

SHRI SHRIPRAKASH JAISWAL): Sir, I beg to move:

That the Bill be passed.

The motion was adopted.

(Ends)

SHORT DURATION DISCUSSION ON INTERNAL SECURITY SCENARIO IN THE COUNTRY .. (CONTD.)

 

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL):- Sir, I am grateful to the hon. Chairman and yourself and other Chairpersons sitting in that Chair for allowing enough time to discuss this important issue in this House. In fact, we welcome the discussion on security. When we discuss this issue in the House, some pin-pricks here and there are certainly given, but more important is the points which are made by the hon. Members and the suggestions given by them. (Contd. by 1y/KSK)

KSK/2.05/1Y

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL (CONTD): Now, their views help us to formulate policies which prove to be more acceptable to the people at large, and I look to this kind of discussion from that angle. It is nearly for two days the discussion was allowed in this House and a few more hours are given to reply to this, and we feel grateful to the House and to the presiding officers for this.

Sir, one of the most important things which the Union Government, or the State Government, is expected to do is to provide security. I said it in Lok Sabha and I would like to repeat it here also that national security, internal security and law and order are these three points which have to be considered while considering the issue of security. National security is provided by the Union Government; law and order has been the responsibility of the State Government, and the paramilitary forces help the Union Government to provide national security. It is not really understood by many of us that the entire international border in peacetime is manned by paramilitary forces. It is not the Defence Forces which are protecting the international border; it is only LoC which is protected by the Defence Forces, but as far as the international border is concerned, it is paramilitary forces which are standing guard over them. The State Police has the responsibility of providing the law and order in the State as per the directions given by the State Government. And, the paramilitary forces are sometimes asked to help the State police to discharge this duty. This has also to be understood in clear terms. At times, even the Defence Forces can be asked to help the State police to maintain law and order in their State. Now, this perspective should be there before our eyes before we understand as to what has to be done and how things have to be done in our country with respect to the national security, internal security and the law and order situation in the country. Once we understand this, there is no difficulty in coming to the conclusions as to what has to be done, who has to do it and what is going to happen in the future. We would be in a position to visualise what has to be done in this respect. Defence Forces will be helpful in countering the attack from outside the country. Paramilitary forces would be helping them. But, when there are internal disturbances, not a question of law and order, the paramilitary forces would take over. That would be their responsibility more than the responsibility of the Defence Forces. But, if it is a question of law and order, it is the responsibility of the State police to maintain law and order. If these things are understood in correct perspective, it will not be difficult for us to decide as to what has to be done by the Union Government and the State Government.

Sir, the motion before us is that the law and order situation and the internal security situation have deteriorated and so, let us discuss it. The question is, "Has it really deteriorated?" We have given the status paper on internal security. It is given in writing. It is authenticated by me and it is based on facts and figures not collected by the Union Government but given by the State Governments. (continued by 1z)

GSP-AKA/2.10/1z

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL (CONTD.): My only request to the hon. Members is to glance through this Status paper. If you don't want to read all the pages over here, at least, have a look at the graphs which we have given, and, within a minute's time, you will be able to know whether the situation has improved or deteriorated. It will not be necessary to read it. But if we don't do even this, and, if we go by the conceptions which we have been entertaining in our minds that the situation is good or the situation is bad; in this part of the country, it is good, in this part, it is bad; then, it is very difficult.

I would like to say that while speaking on behalf of the Ruling Party, Mr. Singhvi made his speech explaining what is the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, what is the situation in the North Eastern States, what is the situation in the States where the Naxalite movement is existing, and, he made it very clear. It is not necessary for me to repeat all what he said here. I would be repeating only the points that he has made, and, I would be making the same points that have been given in writing to the hon. Members in this House. The conclusion, at which we can arrive, is that the situation in Jammu and Kashmir has improved. I am not going to give facts, figures and all that, i.e., how many incidents took place, how many people were killed, how many security personnel were killed, how many civilians were killed. I am not going to touch upon all those things because those figures are already given in this paper. But the fact is that the situation in Jammu and Kashmir has improved. In some areas, it has improved to the extent of forty per cent; in some areas, it has improved to the extent of sixty per cent, and, some areas of Jammu and Kashmir are totally peaceful like Ladakh and other areas. Now, this has to be remembered by us in our minds.

What is the situation in North Eastern States? Again, Mr. Singhvi did explain to us as to what is the situation in Assam, Arunachal Pradesh, Nagaland, Manipur, Meghalaya and Mizoram. Arunachal Pradesh and Mizoram are peaceful. Sikkim is also peaceful. Situation in Meghalaya was very good but, in recent times, it has deteriorated a little. Situation in Nagaland was also very good but, in recent times, it has deteriorated, and, it has deteriorated because of the feud between the two sections of the parties, who were together in the past and who were responsible for the militant activities over there. Because of the feud between these two sections, the casualties have occurred; otherwise the civilian people's life and properties are fully protected in Nagaland also. Because of their quarrel, the figures have gone up and it appears that the situation is not as good as it was. The situation in Manipur was quite bad but it has improved like anything. If we take the sum total of the situation in all these States, we can safely come to the conclusion that the situation in North Eastern States has improved and not deteriorated. Now, this is the conclusion, and, to support this, I am not quoting the figures; I am just depending on what is stated in this Status paper.

With regard to the States affected by Naxalite movement, the situation in Andhra Pradesh was very bad. Now, the Government in Andhra Pradesh wanted to talk to the persons who have been responsible for Naxalite activities in Andhra Pradesh, and, it appeared that they could talk to each other and they could solve this problem through dialogue but then it could not happen. (Contd. by 2a-sk)

SK/2.15/2A

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL (Contd.): Those who were carrying arms did not agree to give up arms and abjure violence, and that is why dialogue could not be continued. The situation in Andhra Pradesh, after the dialogue was terminated, worsened. But now, the situation in Andhra Pradesh is very good and the situation has been totally controlled, totally controlled. The situation in Bihar is better than what it was. But, situation in Chhattisgarh has worsened like anything. It has gone up by 40 per cent and 75 per cent. I am not blaming the Chhattisgarh Government. Why I am not speaking because when the action is taken against the Naxalites in the adjoining States, they have migrated into Chhattisgarh and the pressure has developed there. The Chhattisgarh Government is trying to do its best. They wanted certain kind of help to be given to them and we have given the help. I hope that they would be able to control the situation in Chhattisgarh. If Chhattisgarh situation had remained what it was in the past, now, there would have been a decline in the Naxal violence in the Naxal-affected States by nearly 60 per cent, nearly 60 per cent. The facts and figures are there. One can calculate the facts and figures and calculate the percentage by which the situation has improved or deteriorated. It would be possible. But Naxalites situation in Jharkhand was also bad. But, there is an improvement in Jharkhand. And in Bihar, there is a lot of improvement. Now, because of this, Naxalites movements in these areas is also controlled, in some State fully, in some States it has deteriorated. We hope that as the time pass we would be in a position to control the situation over there.

Now, what is the situation of communal harmony in our country. It is one of the most important things which have to be considered by us. I would like to say that the number of incidents which have occurred in our country has come down. There has been no major communal conflict, fortunately for us, in our country. Now, this is something about which we can feel happy. But the number of persons killed has gone up. The weapons which are used by them and the explosives used by them have been responsible for this. But, one of the most important things, which has occurred in our country and about which we can be legitimately proud and happy, is the manner in which the people have behaved themselves, conducted themselves, when the attempts to disturb the communal harmony were done by some people who wanted to do it. Sir, when the Sankat Mochan temple in Banaras was attacked, it was possible for Mrs. Gandhi and for some of us to go there immediately within two or three hours. We found that the people conducted themselves in a very restrained and responsible manner. When we watched what had happened, we thought that the situation was very bad. But, when we went there, we found that the people there conducted themselves in a very, very responsible manner. And then, Jama Masjid in Delhi was attacked. When Jama Masjid in Delhi was attacked, we thought that the situation could become difficult to manage. But, fortunately for us, those who were responsible for maintaining and for guiding the people, who went to Jama Masjid, came out saying that if the people in Banaras and Ayodhya could behave in a responsible manner, we in Delhi also will behave in a responsible manner. Now, this is a kind of response given. Look at the understanding and the wisdom of the people. Now, they themselves were responsible. It is not possible to depend on the armed forces and the police to control situations like this. (Contd. by ysr-2b)

-SK/YSR/2.20/2B

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL (CONTD.): But when responsible leaders come forward and say certain things that help in defusing the situation, within moments, the situation becomes controllable. When this kind of statement was made, we found that the situation in Delhi became controllable. We all know what happened in Mumbai. Within hours, Mrs. Gandhi, Mr Lalu Prasad, and some of us could go there and we could see that. Those who went there saw it. There, we found that the people in Mumbai also behaved in a very, very responsible manner. When we went to Malegaon -- all of us who had gone to Mumbai had also gone to Malegaon -- and let me say it on the floor of the House, Sir, the people there said, "If people in Mumbai could behave in a manner which did not create problem for the people at large, why should not we?" And they themselves got into jeeps with loudspeakers and went to different places in that city and explained to the people that they should maintain peace and tranquillity. This is how the people conducted themselves. This is the most important thing. Now, if the people behave in a responsible manner, the communal harmony can be maintained in our country. We are very happy about it. The credit should not go to the law and order enforcing machinery; but the credit should go to the understanding of the people in the country and to no one else. This is what has happened and I have briefly stated it.

Sir, while making speeches, some hon. Members made very, very good points. One very important point was made by one of the hon. Members from this side. He made quite a pungent speech and he criticised the Left and the Right. Yet, he asked a very important question. I think that was the most important question raised in the House itself. That was: "Do you have a policy? Do you have a short-term, medium-term, and long-term policy? Do you have a plan to control the terrorist, naxalite, and militant activities in the country?" According to me, that is the most important point made by one of the hon. Members; he is not here. The question is: Do we have a policy or not? The reply is, we do have a policy. I would request the hon. Members to read the facts and figures given in this booklet with respect to the incidents that have taken place in the country. We have not only mentioned in this booklet the kind of policies we have adopted in Jammu and Kashmir, in the North-Eastern States, and in the States affected by naxalite activities, but also in other parts of the country to control the law and order situation, to control the crime in the hinterland, to control the influx of the terrorists through the sea and the air routes, and from across the border on the land and all those things. All those things have been mentioned over here. But that is a point which should be discussed over here. I have been saying that this is not a forum where we can discuss individuals or incidents and say that 'here you committed mistakes and there you committed a mistake' and then use the entire time available to the Members in concentrating on one or two incidents. This is a forum where we should discuss the policies. And if the policies followed by the Government of India are not the policies which can really produce the results, the hon. Members are well within their right to guide the Government, to suggest to the Government, as to how these policies should be changed or should be modified or should be adopted to produce the desired results. That should have been done. If that is done, we are fully satisfied. I would like to state very briefly the kind of policy that we are following to deal with the terrorist activities, to control the terrorist activities in the country.

(Contd. by VKK/2C)

-YSR/VKK-GS/2c/2.25

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL (CONTD.): One of the things is to enhance the strength of the law enforcing agencies in our country, the paramilitary forces with the Union Government and the State police also. We are raising many battalions. Statistics are given. I am not going to quote those statistics. And we are asking the State Governments to raise battalions, train them properly, give them the kind of weapons they need and give them the facilities they need, like the vehicles and the communication facilities. Very briefly, I am suggesting and for this, the Government of India is supporting with huge amounts of money. Again, I am not quoting the figures because figures are given in this booklet.

The second part of the policy is to strengthen the intelligence agencies. At the national level, we have intelligence agencies; defence intelligence, IB and RAW are the agencies. In the States also, we have Special Branches and they are expected to collect the information. But, the information which is collected at the national level is very useful. Now, some people say, you are not doing anything. Your agencies are not collecting the necessary information and making that information available. That is not a fact. Now, what they have done is not disclosed, but they have done well and because of the information received by them and their reach to the States, it has been possible for the State Governments to avoid many, many of the Naxalite activities, many of the terrorist activities, many of the criminal activities against many of the people in the country. I am not going into details. It is not necessary also. But, the fact remains that in modern times, it is necessary to strengthen the intelligence agencies at the national level and the State levels; and we have been asking the State Governments to strengthen their intelligence agencies because actionable information, the information as to the time and the place where the offences could take place, would rather come from the special agencies than from the agencies at the national level. Agencies at the national level give you the directions as to whether the religious places will be attacked, whether the politicians will be the targets, whether soft targets would be attacked and things like that. That also helps. So, we are trying to strengthen the intelligence agencies and to counter terrorism, nothing is as useful as the intelligence; and we are trying to do that.

The third is, we are trying to get the cooperation of the people at large. A law has been passed by us under which private security agencies are allowed to provide security to private installations, private factories, private individuals and things like that. And, to that extent, if the burden on the police is reduced, it would be useful. We are looking at these things to get the cooperation of these agencies. There is another point, and very rightly made by the former Governor of our Reserve Bank. He made a speech and other hon. Members also made speeches. They said that only with bullets and only with guns, you won't be able to control these kinds of activities. They said, economic development is necessary. If the disparities that we find in some parts of our country are not done away with, it would be very difficult to convince the people to behave in a rational manner. And that is why we have taken steps. Let me tell you that Rs.24,000 crores are being made available to Jammu and Kashmir to bring about economic development. When we give this huge impressive figure, some Members say, where has this amount of money gone or who has pocketed this money? They ask: Where is this money? And we have been telling them that, look this money is not given to individuals. This money is used for developing power plants, irrigation dams, constructing roads, hospitals and schools and developing agriculture in that State. (Contd. by 2d)

RSS/MP/2d/2.30

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL (CONTD.): And if this amount of money is properly used, the economic conditions in Jammu and Kashmir will be totally different, and those who are unemployed, they would not be attracted towards illegal activities, but they would rather spend their time in these legal activities, and will support themselves. Nearly 20,000 crores of rupees are given to the North-Eastern States for development, and the decision taken by this Government is to see that this amount of money which is given to these States, is not lapsable. Once given, it will remain with them. It is not necessary to mention this amount of money every year in the Budget. Now, this amount of money is given to them. And there also, what is being done? We are constructing national highways, we are constructing hydel power plants, we are constructing many other such things which will ultimately help us. In the naxal-affected States also, we are giving a lot of money to the State Governments to see that this amount of money is given district-wise and not State-wise. If some districts are affected, money is given for developing the infrastructure, which is required. The roads, schools, hospitals and such things are developed by the State Government, and that is over and above what is given to them for the developmental activities in the State through the Plan and through the Annual Budget they are providing themselves. So, this is the approach we are adopting. The approach is not to solve the problem with force. The approach is to see that economic development is there, and through economic development, the employment is provided. If the people are unemployed, they take to any kind of method to earn money, and that contributes towards terrorism in the country. That is not our approach.

As regards social justice, there are schemes started by the Government of India, like the Employment Guarantee Scheme...(Interruptions)...

RE. BOMB SCARE IN PARLIAMENT HOUSE ANNEXE

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, I am on a point of information. There is a threat and the entire PHA building is cordoned off by the police and all the gates are closed. I would like to know whether the Home Minister is aware of what they have got, why they have closed all these gates.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Now, you have to ask the Parliamentary Affairs Minister.

.. ׻ֵ : bomb squad, ֲ ֵ ֵ , ׮ ֵ ٻִֵ ִ ״ֻ .. פֵ You are discussing the internal security. Can you inform the House as to what has happened?


SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Ahluwaliaji, please don't disturb.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You are the Home Minister. You should be aware of this thing.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You are giving some information. The Minister is replying here.

.. ׻ֵ : Replying , But the point is, when it is happening, you see all the gates of the Parliament House Annexe building are closed.

֮֮ߵ ֤õ : օ

.. ׻ֵ : ? ׻֋, ֟ , ֟ ֤ ™ .. ָ ֵ ? ָ ֯ ֟ ״ֻ , .. ָ ֻ ֋ , ן

׿־ָ֕ . י : ׻ֵ ...׻ֵ .... (־֮֬)...

.. ׻ֵ : ָ ָ Ӥ ֋

׿־ָ֕ . י : ֯ ו, ֯ ֟ , ױ ? ٻִֵ ֌׸ ״׮Ù , ٻִֵ ֌׸ ٻִֵ ֌׸ ï , ָ ֌׸ ....(־֮֬)...

.. ׻ֵ : և ֟ Then I am asking the Speaker, I am asking the Chairman. You please inform the House whether this Parliament building is safe or not when the adjacent PHA building has been cordoned off....(Interruptions)...

׿־ָ֕ . י : ָ , ֯ ֟ ֻ֟? ...(־֮֬)...I cannot send the police.

.. ׻ֵ : ֮֯ ߬ ֻ פ ֌׸ ֯ ӛ ָ , ֟֋, ֟ ? ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֯ : ֟ ....(־֮֬)...

.. ׻ֵ : ׮ֵ ֟ ֵ , ֯ ֟ , ? ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֯ : , ....(־֮֬)...

.. ׻ֵ : ٻִֵ ։ .... (־֮֬)...

ֳ֯ : , , ։ ֻ , You have given the information. Now that we are running the House, we will find out.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: It is the Parliament House Annexe building, the adjacent premises. Let us discuss this issue.....(Interruptions)....

ֳ֯ : ֯ ֋Ӆ ....(־֮֬)....

ִָ֮ ֵ : ָ, ™ן ڮ

.. ׻ֵ : , ֯ ֙-֙ ? * ֟ ? Dogs are barking. You are saying that ָ , Why are you taking it lightly? (contd. by 2e)

ASC-MKS/2E/2.35

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA (CONTD.): Your Home Minister says, "I don't have the responsibility of security of Parliament!" And the Chair says... ...(Interruptions)...

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ָ, ֯ * ׸ ׮ ו ...(־֮֬)..

مولانا عبید اللہ خان اعظمی : سر، یہ کہہ رہے ہیں کہ آپ * بول رہے ہیں۔ اس کو ریکارڈ سے نکال دیجئے ۔۔مداخلت۔۔

ֳ֯ : word ׸ ׮ ...(־֮֬)..

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ֯ * ֟ ? ..(־֮֬)..

مولانا عبید اللہ خان اعظمی : یہ کہہ رہے ہیں کہ آپ * کیا بولتے ہیں۔۔مداخلت۔۔

-------------------------------------------------------

*Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

.. ׻ֵ : , ?...(־֮֬)..֯ ך, ֯ ִ ߕ ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ׻ֵ , ֲ כ ...(־֮֬)..

.. ׻ֵ : ״׮Ù ֌׸ ָ ־ֲ ٻִֵ ֣ , ֤ ֤߮ ׬ָ ֣ ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ...(־֮֬)..

׿־ָ֕ . י : ֻ֟ ? ..(־֮֬)..

.. ׻ֵ : ֵ ֯ ֟֋ ָ ֤ ֟ , ֟և ...(־֮֬)..

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: As a Speaker, I did not allow the Home Minister to come into the Parliament premises. ...(Interruptions)... And as a Home Minister I am not allowed to come into the House without their permission. ...(Interruptions)...

ֵ֮ ֻ ָ : ֮֮ߵ ֳ֯ן ֻ ?...(־֮֬)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, you are taking it lightly. ...(Interruptions)... You are taking it lightly.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no, no.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, my submission is simple.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We have sent the Additional Secretary to find out as to what has happened exactly. As soon as I get the information, I will inform the House.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, if you give the correct information, at least the telecast on TV will be stopped. ...(Interruptions)... Because the whole nation, the whole world is getting this information that there is a bag containing explosives in the PHA, it is giving a wrong message to the world. You must stop it. ...(Interruptions)... You must stop it. How you can stop it, you know it better. ...(Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ : ֯ ? ...(־֮֬)..

.. ׻ֵ : ֯ և (־֮֬).. ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ֯ ֋ , ֮֯ ֮ (־֮֬).. ։ ֻ ..(־֮֬).. We don't have TV here.

.. ׻ֵ : ֯ ׸ָ ֤õ ? ...(־֮֬)...֯ ִ֣ ? ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : , ֟ ? ..(־֮֬)..

ָ : ָ, ֟ ֮ פ ٻִֵ ֟ ֆ, ִ ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ֯ ֋ ...(־֮֬).. ֈ ֻ ...(־֮֬)..

.. ׻ֵ : ׻֋ ֟ ..(־֮֬)..

׾ֵ֕ ָ : ָ, ֟ , ״׮Ù ֟ , ֟ ו ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ֯ , ...(־֮֬).. ..(־֮֬)..

.. ׻ֵ : ֯ և ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : , ׻ֵ , ֯ ֟ ..(־֮֬) և כ֮ ...(־֮֬)..

ָ : ָ, ָ և ָ ֵօ ָ ֟ և ...(־֮֬)..

.. ׻ֵ : ֟ , .. ָ ָ֕ ...(־֮֬)..

׿־ָ֕ . י : ֯ ֟ ׸օ ...(־֮֬)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I don't see if the intention is......(Interruptions)... serious ֟ We will find out. ...(Interruptions)... ֟ , , information gadgets ...(Interruptions)...

.. ׻ֵ : ֻ ָ information ..(־֮֬).. ٻִֵ ָ ֮ , ָָ ? ...(־֮֬)..

THE MINISTER OF OVERSEAS INDIAN AFFAIRS (SHRI VAYALAR RAVI): This is not correct, Sir. If something happens somewhere, why do we adjourn the House? Lok Sabha is going on.

...(Interruptions)...

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You must get the information.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: We are sitting here. How will we get the information? ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You must get the information.

ֳ֯ן : ֯ answer , answer ״ֻ , ٻִֵ ֌׸ , ٻִֵ ֣ , Ù ׸ ֮֯ ־ֻ ֯ ֻ ? ֮ כ֮ As soon as I get the information, I will immediately inform the House.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Please get the information.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have sent the Additional Secretary for finding out.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: My submission and my concern is only this much.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Definitely. We appreciate it. ֯ ֋ You have informed us. ...(Interruptions)...

֮ ֻ ӛ : ָ, ־ֿ ׾־֤ ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ֯ כ, ֈ information ...(־֮֬)..

֮ ֻ ӛ : ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֯ : ӛ , ֯ ך ָ ....(־֮֬). ֵ , ֯ ך ..(־֮֬).. , ֯ ך ..(־֮֬).. You are right. You have given the information. We are finding out.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, my concern is only this much. ...(Interruptions)...too breaking news on all the TV channels.......

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Fine.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: ......giving this information. Worldwide, the people are watching this.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: But we are conducting the proceedings.

Through the House you know.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Through the House you inform.....

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will just now find inform.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: ...whether the building is safe so that they can telecast it.; there is no problem.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: That is my point, Sir. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: From the House I will announce as soon as I get the information.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, they are saying, "No, no; ֌׸ ָ ׻֋ ֵ ...(־֮֬)..

֮ ֻ ӛ : ָ, ...(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : , ֯ ך ...(־֮֬).. ״Ù ֵ ֯ ך ..(־֮֬).. I am not allowing you. ...(Interruptions)...

.. ׻ֵ : ֯ ִ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ : ֯ ך, ӛ , ך ...(־֮֬).. ָֻ֮ ״׮Ù ..(־֮֬) ӛ , ֯ ך ...(־֮֬).. ֯ ֤ ֟ ..(־֮֬).. Don't go on arguing like this. ...(Interruptions)... Please continue, Mr. Patil. (Contd. by TMV/2F)

-MKS-TMV-LT/2F/2.40

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : As soon as I get the information, I will give you. The Additional Secretary has gone to find out. (Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Sir, hon. Members are bold enough and the Secretariat of the Parliament is responsible enough. If there were anything which really could have been taken care of, we would have been informed. (Interruptions)...

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Nobody is suspecting the ability of the people.

ֳ֯ : .. ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Only the message, the breaking news, is going on. (Interruptions)... You must stop that. (Interruptions)... You must stop that. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: How can he do that? (Interruptions)...

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Sir, there should be some control on the electronic media. Without ascertaining the facts, they go public. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We will discuss that later. (Interruptions)...

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: God knows the truth. (Interruptions)... God knows the truth. (Interruptions)...

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, I agree with Mr. Ramachandraiah that there should be some control on the irresponsible electronic media. They spread such sensational things. (Interruptions)....

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: You must know the truth, whether it is sensational or true. (Interruptions)...

׿־ָ֕ .י : ֟ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI AMAR SINGH: This is sensational. (Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, anything which agitates Ahluwaliaji... (Interruptions)....

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: I am sorry that Mr. Ahluwalia is thinking that something dangerous is going to happen. I don't think that anything is going to happen. If it were there, they would have certainly told us. Let us have confidence in ourselves. (Interruptions)...

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: It is not my apprehension. (Interruptiions)... I am the last person to leave the House. (Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Now, you tell me at what intervals are you going to the TV? (Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ : ֯ כ͋..(־֮֬)..֟ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: I don't remember on which point I was speaking. He had succeeded ...(Interruptions)....

SHRI EKANATH K. THAKUR: The point is that the common citizen is feeling insecure. (Interruptions)... When the Parliament is feeling insecure ....(Interruptions)... everyone is insecure. (Interruptions)...

THE MINISTER OF OVERSEAS INDIAN AFFAIRS (SHRI VAYALAR RAVI): Sir, it is your responsibility to inform the Members of Parliament. You have already taken note of it. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have already taken note of it.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: We are all sitting here. If there is any information, we will take care of it. We all will take care of it. The Secretary-General is sitting here. You are sitting here. I am sitting here. How do we get the information? If there were anything dangerous... (Interruptions).... they would have informed us.

Sir, I was trying to say that the hon. Members very validly suggested not to depend on forces alone, to reduce the disparity in economic development in different parts of the country, to provide means of income to all the people in the country and to reduce the unemployment to the extent possible. I totally agree with this kind of approach.

The third point which we have to consider is that yesterday some hon. Members said, on the floor of the House, "Let us not all the time depend on forces. We can ourselves also contribute". I agree with them that individuals can contribute.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It was a routine security drill. There is no danger. (Interruptions)... It is a routine security drill. (Interruptions)...

SHRI PENUMALLI MADHU: It is a mole. (Interruptions)... What is this? (Interruptions)... It is a mole. (Interruptions).... You have wasted two hours. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Madhu, please. (Interruptions)...

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: It is more serious. (Interruptions)... It is more serious. (Interruptions)... If it is a routine drill and if it is shown as a breaking news to the entire nation, it is more serious. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We will find out. (Interruptions)...

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: If it is a routine drill, it cannot be a breaking news. (Interruptions)... It can't be. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, he has found out. I am making this statement, after the Additional Secretary went and made an enquiry. (Followed by VK/2G)

VK-AKG/2G/2.45

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, please direct the Secretary-General or the Security of Parliament to hold a Press Conference and announce that it was a routine security drill; otherwise, the people will be on tenterhooks till night. They will be very much worried. (Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This is the announcement from the Chair. The whole nation is watching it. It has been confirmed that it was a routine security drill which was going on. Then some electronic media might have sensationalised it. We will find out why it has happened. (Interruptions).

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: No, Sir. (Interruptions). This is the responsibility of Parliament to inform the Press.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We will find it out. Definitely, we will take action.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: How has it happened?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We will take action. We will see how it has happened.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Sir, it is also the responsibility of the hon. Members not to raise any point without verifying whether it is correct or not. (Interruptions).

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, when it is on the media....(Interruptions).

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Can't we believe newspapers? Can't we believe T.V.? Whom should we believe? (Interruptions).

׾ֵ֕ ָ : ֟ ... (־֮֬) ...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We have taken action. Mr. Ramachandariah, please sit down. Mr. Ahluwalia, it has been informed that the Director, Security will be announcing it on the media that it was a routine security drill and that the breaking news was wrong. This will be done.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, the Home Minister says that the hon. Members should verify it ....(Interruptions).

׾ֵ֕ ָ : ָ verify ... (־֮֬) ...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ramachandraiah, there should be some limit. (Interruptions). You go on saying anything and you don't want to listen to others. (Interruptions).

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: You should apologise to the House for this wrong news. (Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: ... (־֮֬) ... ֟ ... (־֮֬) ... - ߕ ָ ... (־֮֬) ... What is that he has said? (Interruptions). He has said, "Every Member should be responsible". ֯ ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ... (־֮֬) ... ָ ... (־֮֬) ... ... (־֮֬) ... He has said that before announcing anything the hon. Member should verify...(Interruptions). ִ ... (־֮֬) ... What can I do? routine security drill , ֲ ֮֟ ... (־֮֬) ... ָ security ... (־֮֬) ... ֻ ... (־֮֬) ... ֮ - ֟ ׻֋ ֯ ֟ ... (־֮֬) ... ߕ ׻֋ ֟ ... (־֮֬) ... ִֿ ֵ ... (־֮֬) ... - ߕ ׻֋ ֯ ֟ ... (־֮֬) ... What is this? For small things, you come to the Well of the House. I am sorry. I appeal to you to please go back to your seats. (Interruptions). (Followed by 2H)

RG/HMS/2.50/2H

ֳ֯ : ֲ ֯ ׬ָ ..(־֮֬)... ֮ ׬ָ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ׻֋? , ֯ ֟ ו ...(־֮֬)... ֟ ֯ ֮ ׬ָ ? ...(־֮֬)... No, Ӆ ֯ ߙ ...(־֮֬)... I am sorry...(Interruptions) .. ߱և ֵ ...(־֮֬)... ֻ , information ֋? ...(־֮֬)...

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI : Sir, who is responsible for the security of Parliament? If it is not the responsibility of the hon. Home Minister, then, who is responsible?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : It is the Speaker...

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI : It is either the Speaker or the Vice President; there has to be responsibility somewhere. Is it possible to inform the House?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have informed...(Interruptions)

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI : If it is a routine drill, then, the security staff must have informed you that they are going to do it...(Interruptions)

ֳ֯ : , ָ ׮ ֯ calm և, ߕ ׻ֵ ...(־֮֬)... ֯ ֯ և, ׻ֵ

Nothing is going on record...(Interruptions) Nothing is going on record...(Interruptions)... ֯ ׸ ו ....(־֮֬)....The House is adjourned for half-an-hour.

------

The House then adjourned at

fifty-four minutes past two of the clock.

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