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AKG-KSK/2Y/4.00

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ׻ ֻև, ָ פ ֋ ... (־֮֬) ...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Azmiji, please conclude...(Interruptions).

.. ׻ֵ : ֯ٻִֵ ֟ ִ banned organisation , ֣ ... (־֮֬) ...

ֳ֬ : ׻ֵ , ֯ ֟ ִ և ... (־֮֬) ... ̴֕ , ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ...

ִ ̴֕ : ָ ׸Ù և֮ ... (־֮֬) ...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: ̴֕ , ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... Let me also please clarify, objection ִ banned organisation , comparison ָ organisation ֣, banned , ֵ֤ ߅

ߴ֟ Ӥ ָ : ָ, ֲֻ֟ ... (־֮֬) ...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Let him finish. ̴֕ , ߕ ֯ ֮ ֟ ֟ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... I have already clarified. Now, there is no issue and nothing else is going on record. Please, conclude....(Interruptions). Please, conclude.

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ֛ ֣ ... (־֮֬) ... ӡ ִֵ ֲԤ ... (־֮֬) ... ִֵ ״ֻ ... (־֮֬) ... ֋, ֟ ֮և ... (־֮֬) ...

ֵָ : *

ֵ֮ ֻ ָ : *

׾ֵ֕ ָ : *

.. ׻ֵ : *

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please, conclude...(Interruptions). Let him conclude. ֯ ֮ ֮ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... Let him finish. ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... , ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... ״֮֙, ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... Just one minute...(Interruptions). Let me handle. ֕ʹ , ֕ ̸ ֟ ׸ױ֮ ו֋, ִ ٻִֵ ֻ Please clarify this. ... (־֮֬) ... ״֮֙, ֮ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... , ֮ פ ... (־֮֬) ... ֟ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ֮ ֟ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... You can't do that, Mr. Pany. Please, go back to your seat. ֯ ֮ ߙ ָ և ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ֮ ߙ

________________________________

* Not recorded

ָ և ... (־֮֬) ... ׸ױ֮ ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ֮ ߙ ָ և ... (־֮֬) ... Let him finish. I cannot hear everyone in this din. פ comparison ... (־֮֬) ... ֛ ... (־֮֬) ... , ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... ֛ ... (־֮֬) ... ֟ ד֟ , ֛ ֋ and the matter is over. Please take your seats. ... (־֮֬) ... ׻ֵ , ֛ , ד֟ , ֛ ֋ ... (־֮֬) ...

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ׸ױ֮ ... (־֮֬) ...

ϟ֯ : *

.. ׻ֵ : *

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, I have a point of order.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Tell your people to let you speak. Tell them to go back. Let them go back...(Interruptions). He has a point of order. Let him finish.

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, I have a point of order. Exactly the similar statement was made in the last session by the hon. Member, Shri Janeshwar Mishra, who is not present in the House today. The same objection was taken by us and the objection precisely was that one is a banned organisation which has been banned and the ban has been upheld by the Tribunal. The Central Government, even today, continues to ban it. (continued by 2z)

________________________________

* Not recorded

GSP-HMS/2Z/4.05

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): How can you start drawing comparisons of that institution with the RSS? There was a stalemate, and, after that Shri Janeshwar Mishra stood up and had the dignity to withdraw that statement in the House itself. Once this issue has been decided in the last session that comparison between SIMI and RSS on these grounds will not be allowed, Mr. Janeshwar Mishraji withdrew his statement, how can somebody repeat that statement again, and, if he repeats it, he must be prevented and the same procedure must apply and he must withdraw that statement. (Interruptions)

THE VICE CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): No, I must have my ruling. (Interruptions) Amar Singhji, I must have my ruling. Please. (Interruptions)

ָ : ָ, ֻ֟ ֮ ...(־֮֬)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Ahluwaliaji, I must have my say. (Interruptions)

: ִֵ ָ֮ ״ ִ ָ֕ ׻֋ ָ ִ ן ׌֟ gesture ֌ ֮ ֌־ ׯ

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: No, no. (Interruptions) ֯ և, ߕ have to give my ruling. Please sit down. I have to give my ruling. (Interruptions)

ϟ֯ : ָ, ֟ ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֬ : ֯ ֟ ו֋, ֤ ֯ ״ֻօ Hon. Member, Shri Arun Jaitleyji has raised a point, and, I remember that last time there was a stalemate on a similar issue. So, maybe you want to clarify, if you have compared, which I had mentioned in my remarks. If you have compared a banned organisation with some organisation which is not banned, that will not go on record. And, last time...(Interruptions)... Its not going on record and he has withdrawn it. So, please carry on further. ֯ carry on ו֋ Let him carry on. (Interruptions) Please carry on. Brindaji, please let him carry on. I have already given my ruling. (Interruptions) Please let him carry on.

00 ׻ֵ : ָ, 5 ״֮֙ ִ ָ ֟ ..(־֮֬)... ִ ..(־֮֬)...

ָ : ֺ ban ו֋

00 ׻ֵ : banned

THE VICE CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Amar Singhji, the matter is over. (Interruptions) The matter is over. Azmiji, please conclude now. The matter is settled now. Please conclude. (Interruptions)

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, he is misleading the House. (Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I think, the matter is settled. Azmiji, please conclude now. (Interruptions) The matter is settled. Please conclude. (Interruptions)

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ֓ , ָ ֟ ִ֤օ ָ, ? ָ, ֕ͻ ֕ͻ ևӤ

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Azmiji, please conclude. Please conclude.

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ߾ָ ָ ֜ , " ™ ֮֮ " ָ, ָ , ו֮ ֤֕ ֵ ֮ ֮ ֕ , פ ֟ ִ ߕ Ӭ ֟ ו ֤֕ ֮ ׻֋ ֮ פ, ֱ ֮ ֻ ֋ ? (Time-bell)

THE VICE CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Thank you very much. Now, you please conclude.

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ״׮Ù ֟ ...(־֮֬)... ֟ ...(־֮֬)... ״׮Ù , ֯ ֟ ִ ו֋

THE VICE CHAIRMAN: ֯ ֮ conclude ו֋

ִ ̴֕ : ״׮Ù , ֻ֟ ָָ ָָ ו֮ ֻӾ Ӳև ֮ ׻֋ ֵ ֕ פ 28 30 ֱ 00և0 ӌֵָ

THE VICE CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): You please conclude. (Interruptions) Azmiji, please conclude now. (Time-bell) Next speaker, Shri Abani Roy.

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ֱ ״֮֙ օ ֕ ӕ ׻֟ ָ ֵ ֮ ־֕ և 00և0 ӌֵָ ֮ ֵ, ֻӾ Ӳև 00և0 ӌֵָ ֮ ֟? (Time-bell)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, ̴֕ , - օ ׮ ֵօ

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, כӛ ӌֵָ ֮ ֮ ֮֟ ִ֮ ֮

ֳ֬ : ׮ ֵօ

ִ ̴֕ : և, ֯ ? ״׮Ù (3 /ߋ־ ָ ֿ:)

PSV-SK/3A/4.10

ִ ̴֕ (֟) : ָ, ֟ ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֬: ֯ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)... ֮֯ ֟ ߅...(־֮֬)...

ִ ̴֕ : ֱ ״֮֙, ָ ...(־֮֬)... ָ, ׳־ӛ ײß֮ ִ߮ ָ ׻ Ù֮ ֮ օ ׻֋ ־֕ և ֟ ֮֮ ו֋ ָ ֻ, וִ 2 ָ פ ֋ 2 ָ ֤ ָָ ֈ ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֬ ( פ ס־): ֯ ך, ߕ̅ ...(־֮֬)... ִ֕ , ߕ ...(־֮֬)...

ִ ̴֕ : ֤ - ֋ ֈִ , ֕ ֵ ״ֻ, ָ, ִֻ֮ ! ֲֻ֟ ? ...(־֮֬)... ָ, -, ߮-߮ ָ ״׮Ù , ֕ ֵ ״ֻօ ֤ ״׮Ù ׳־ӛ ...(־֮֬)... ָ ׳־ӛ ׻ ָ ָ֟ ָ, ָ օ ָ פ ...(־֮֬)... , ֟ ...(־֮֬)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN : Thank you, very much. ...(Interruptions).. Shri Abani Roy. ...(Interruptions).. Shri Abani Roy. ...(Interruptions).. ...(Time-bell).. ߕ, ֯ ֛ ...(־֮֬)...

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ֟ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)... ָ, ֱ ״֮֙ ...(־֮֬)... ֟ ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֬ : ו֋ ? ...(־֮֬)...

ִ ̴֕ : ָ™ ֻ ֻ, כ ֻ ֻ, ֻ ׻ ֻ ָ, ֯ ֣ ͟ ״׮Ù ׻ ֻ ָ ָ ֮ ׻֋ ָ ׳־ӛ ָ֟ ָ, ָ ...(־֮֬)... ָ™ , ֣ ִ֕־֤ ֙ ֣ ֮ ֤ ֤ ָ ؙ ָ ֵ , ֵ ֻ ߔ ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֬ ( פ ס־) : ̴֕ , ߕ ...(־֮֬)... ֵ ...(־֮֬)...

ִ ̴֕ : ׻֋ ...(־֮֬)... әֻ ꌵ׸ ֛ ָ֟ ...(־֮֬)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN : Shri Abani Roy, please start, otherwise, I am going to call the next speaker. ...(Interruptions)..

ִ ̴֕ : ֕ ֢ , ֵ ...(־֮֬)... ִֻ֮ ֣ ...(־֮֬)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI) : Shri Abani Roy, please start. ...(Interruptions).. You have to conclude it now. ...(Interruptions).. Please conclude ...(Interruptions)..

ִ ̴֕ : ...(־֮֬)... ֮ 㻴 ָ ֮ ֻ ...(־֮֬)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN : Please conclude ...(Interruptions)..

ִ ̴֕ : ֳ әֻ ꌵ׸ ֤֟ ֟ ...(־֮֬)... - օ (ִ֯)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Shri Abani Roy.

׮ ֵ (׿ִ ֻ) : ֮־֤, ֳ֬ ߅ ֟ әֻ ꌵ׸ ָ ֟ ꌵ׸ ֟ , ׻ Ù-ֲ Ù ֻ ֣ ֵ әֻ ꌵ׸ ָ ֓ , ֓ ָ ִ ־֮Դ ֻ ֟ , ֻ ֟ , ֟ , Ӥ ֟ , ֻܵ ֲ ߕ Ù ָ ֻ Ù ֲ Ù , ֟ ׸Ù ֟ , ֟ ָ ֟ , ֻ ã , ָ ߕ ָ ֮ , ָ ֻ ? ָ ָ , ֮ ֻ ֟ , ִ Ù ״ֻ ֋, ֟ ִ֮֬ ֋, ֋ ֟ ִ , Ù , ߸ , 㴲և Ù ָ ײָ Ù , , ֜ ֤ ֱ ISI ֣ ݻ֤ ֣ ָ ֣ ֟ ״ֻ֟ ָ ָ әֻ ꌵ׸ ָ ָ֕ , ֣, ֲֻ֟ Ù ֣ , ָ ָ ֋, ׮Ե , ָ ֻ ו֮֟ ֡ , ו֮֟ , ֮ әֻ ꌵ׸ ָ ֟ ֋, ֵ֤

֕ ִ֮ ֛ ָ ָ֟ ֵ ֟ ֜ , ײ և פ-פ ӛ, ֿ֤, פ ָ ֟ ִֻ , ִֻ , ֟ , , -- ָ ֮ әֻ ꌵ׸ ָ , ִ֮֬ (3 ָ ֿ:)

YSR-KLG/4.15/3B

׮ ֵ (֟) : ׻֋ ӡ ß ֵ֮ әֻ ֌׸ , ӛ֤ , ו ָ ִ ֮֟ ֟ ֟ , ֣-֣ ִ ֮֟ ֟ , ״ֻ֮ ָ ִ ֋, ֻܵ ֻ֟ ֿ ֟פ ֤֟ ֲ֛ ֋ ׻֋ ָ ֮ ׻֋ ӡ , ֯ ָ ָ ܟ ܟ ׮Ե ֟ , ֯ Ù ֣, Ù , ֲ ֣ ֟֓ߟ ֯ ֱ , , ״ֻ , gate is open. ֕ , , , ֱ ֱֻ , , ָ , ָ ׻֋ ׮Ե , ֨ӟ ϵ , ֻ ֓ օ

ָ, ֮֮ߵ ӡ ֕ -סֵ ӡֵֻ ֟ ָ , ֻ סֵ ֟ ֮֟, , ׻ ֻ , ӡֵֻ , ׻֋ ӡֵֻ ׬׸ ִֻ ׮ֵ֯֙ ֋, ׮Ե ׻ֵ ֋ ִֻ , ׮׿֟ , ׻֋ ד֟ ׮Ե (ִ֯)

SHRI MOINUL HASSAN (WEST BENGAL): Sir, I rise to take part in an important discussion which started yesterday. Sir, yesterday when this debate started, one book -- Status Paper on Internal Security Situation -- was supplied to us. I have had an opportunity today to go through the book. As far as terrorism and national security are concerned, it is a fact that in some spheres, there are some remarkable improvements so far. It is a fact that in the allocation of funds, there is some increase. As far as confidence-building measures are concerned, some positive steps have been taken. Dialogue is opening in different parts of the country. As far as the Ministry of Home Affairs is concerned, some positive steps regarding our internal security and national security have been taken on behalf of the Government of India. When we say that one death of civilian or one death of our jawan is a big concern to us, we must accept this position that the situation is not so good, as light as the bindings of this book. I would like to say it, Sir.

Everybody talked about Jammu and Kashmir and the North-Eastern Region. I am not going into the details of Jammu and Kashmir and the North-Eastern Region, because it has already been dealt with in a big way. But some incidents are happening in Jammu and Kashmir, the North-Eastern Region, and Mumbai. I would like to state before this august House that very recently in Jalpaiguri, which is a remote place in West Bengal, at Belacoba station, a blast took place in a train compartment.

(MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair)

Ten people were killed and intelligence report was not there. Prima facie report has shown that three terrorist groups are very much involved in this incident. It is not only in Jammu and Kashmir and the North-Eastern Region, but terrorist groups are also working throughout the country, and we are not able to trace them properly in proper time. So, not only our civilians but our beloved jawans also are killed at the hands of terrorists. This is our concern. We should protect them.

(Contd. by VKK/3C)

-YSR/VKK/3c/4.20

SHRI MOINUL HASSAN (CONTD.): Sir, another thing which I would like to bring on record is this. Honourable Home Minister, I am not quoting from the newspapers. I am quoting just two figures, not in detail. In 2000, fatalities in terrorist violence, excluding left wing extremist violence including civilians, security force personnel and terrorists, were 5839 and in November, 2006, it is reduced to 1876. I am told that very positive steps have been taken in the last two and a half years; but, on the other side, I would like to say as far as the fatalities in left wing extremist violence are concerned, it has increased a little bit. In 2002, it was 482 and in 2005, it was 669. It has increased a little bit. It is our concern.

Another aspect of this internal security is, left wing terrorism. I heard the debate initiated by Mr. Arun Jaitely and my friend Mr. Abhishek also took part. I am not going into the details as to which portion of the country is now captured by left wing terrorists. I am not talking about that. But, as far as my information goes, I would like to say that nearly 156 districts are hit by left wing terrorism. I would say, Sir, it is very dangerous. Mr. Abhishek raised that point yesterday also, that is, we are talking about districts, but, we should find out how many villages have been captured. I would like to supplement his point in this way. Among these 156 districts, nearly 50 districts are highly affected; 18 districts are moderately affected; 58 districts are marginally affected; and 30 districts are targeted. These 156 districts are spread over in thirteen States of our country. This is a great concern so far as individuals are concerned, so far as the political parties are concerned and especially my party, the Communist Party of India (Marxists) is concerned. Sir, why am I speaking like this? Why is it happening throughout the country? Sir, with your indulgence, I would like to quote just one para:

"Extremism is not merely a law and order issue. This we recognize. Development, or rather the lack of it, often has a critical bearing, as do exploitation and iniquitous socio-political circumstances. Inadequate employment opportunities, lack of access to resources, under-developed agriculture, artificially depressed wages, geographical isolation, lack of effective land reforms may all impinge significantly on the growth of extremism."

It is not from anywhere, I am quoting from the speech of the Prime Minister in the Chief Ministers' Conference on Internal Security and Law and Order, 2005. So, I would like to know from the hon. Home Minister as to what action is taken on the points cited in the lecture of the Prime Minister. How was it translated into action to resolve extremism in this light? I would like to ask that.

I would like to inform here it is very much related. It is about Tripura. What is happening in Tripura? Cross-border terrorism is there. There is an attempt on behalf of the Ministry. Fencing is there. But the fencing is not being completed in Tripura today. One hundred and twenty miles are now raised. All the people are coming from Bangladesh. When incidents take place, they go off to Bangladesh again. We will do this. My proposal is, repeated dialogue should be started from the Government of India with the Governments of the States. I would like to say that it is not merely a question of law and order. Nobody is denying that the Government of India has a great role to improve the situation so far as national security of the country is concerned. (Contd. by MKS/3d)

-VKK/MKS/KLG/4.25/3D

SHRI MOINUL HASSAN (CONTD.): Sir, another point is that the Naxalites, the left-wing terrorists and the Maoists are using more sophisticated weapons. But our jawans, our security people have never seen them. I have the experience. Sir, just for one minute I would like to narrate it. There was a meeting held in West Bengal, the Rightist meeting. I was invited. It was also discussed as far as the security is concerned. High-level security personnel were also there. The DG of West Bengal has told us that we are now very well equipped because we have already given good mobile phones to our officers; they can rapidly contact our Head Office about the activities of the terrorists, the movement of the terrorists and such other persons. But I have just told them that mobile phones are in the hand of our beloved officers, but more sophisticated mobile phones than theirs are with the terrorists. So, who will win? One day, we will say like this that they have got more sophisticated weapons than ours. So, we must improve the infrastructure facilities that are provided to our jawans, to our security people, to those who are in a position to save the national security of our country.

Sir, another point which I would like to make here is that technological upliftment has taken place, and crimes are also taking place. There is a cyber age going on. At this point of time, we must try our best to adequately improve our infrastructure facilities.

Sir, I would like to mention here another important point. What is happening today in the society? Crimes against the weaker sections, especially the women, are taking place in every nook and corner of the country. People are feeling isolated. Isolation among the people of various communities is taking place throughout the country, in different parts of the country. So, who will solve this problem of isolation? If we are not in a position to solve the problem of isolation, Sir, terrorism will grow further. Isolation not in geography, not in economy, but isolation in mentalities is taking place throughout the country. So, we are facing this problem every day. We should try to remove the feelings of isolation among the people.

Sir, one point is being very well discussed; I am not going into the details. With your permission, Sir, I am saying this. Mr. Manohar Joshi is not here; he was the Chief Minister of a State; he was also the Speaker of our beloved Lok Sabha. He has told us like this--I do not know what he wanted to say; actually I have failed to understand his version-- Sir, you were in the Chair at that time--when he said--I beg your pardon, Sir,--that so far as these incidents are happening, so far as terrorism is happening, let the people decide about those who are in terrorist groups. He has segregated one community. Those who belong to a particular religion may be poor people, they may be big people or they may be middle-class people. What is happening in the country, Sir, is a fact. What is happening in the august House is for you to decide. But it is a fact that we, the Indians, are very proud of living in this beloved country. All the communities, all the people, the 110- crore Indians are very much in favour of protecting the sovereignty of our country. So, why is this type of blame being made? Why are this type of speeches going on? Another point, Sir, is.......(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude now.

SHRI MOINUL HASSAN: I am concluding, Sir.

Sir, about Mohammed Afzal Guru, what is happening? Everybody is talking about Afzal Guru. But somebody said, "Why are you waiting for the hon. President's opinion? Why is he not hanged?"

(Contd. by TMV/3E)

-MKS-TMV-MCM/3E/4.30

SHRI MOINUL HASSAN (CONTD.): He may be hanged or may not be. I don't know. I am not a lawyer like Mr. Ram Jethmalani. I am not a lawyer at all. I am a small fry; I am a political worker of this country. I may belong to the CPM or something else; but I am a common man. Is it possible to hang me when there is article 72 which exists in our Constitution? I have every right to send a mercy petition. I might have murdered three or four or five persons. But am I not entitled to send a mercy petition to the hon. President, to His Excellency? Till he comes to a conclusion on the question of clemency, nothing will happen. With a heavy heart I say that, in the meanwhile, we unnecessarily bring the hon. President into the discussion. My point is this. Afzal Guru is not the point. The point is that everybody should follow the normal procedure, the Constitution and the laws which are framed by this august House. Everybody, from the President to a normal representative of the country, should abide by the Constitution of this country. This is the Afzal Guru's case. Somebody said, "Why is he not hanged now since the attack on this august House was conspired by him?". It is not the only case. I have got a copy of the official record. I would like to mention two more cases among the pending mercy petitions. They are the cases of Devendra Pal Singh of Delhi and Simon, Ghanaprakash, Madiah, and Bilavendra of Karnataka which related to mass murder by causing explosion. They are also pending. Twenty-two mercy petitions are pending, not Afzal Guru's alone. I am not trying to dilute the case of Afzal Guru. Nobody will do that. But there is a normal procedure, so far as our country is concerned. I am very much concerned about the internal security and the national security of our country. But I would like to say that proper action should be taken. Nobody should be spared, as far as national security is concerned. With these words, I conclude. Thank you. (Ends)

SHRI SYED AZEEZ PASHA (ANDHRA PRADESH): Thank you Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to participate in the discussion on this most important subject. There are various serious issues of internal security like the problem of Naxalism, insurgency in the North-Eastern region, extremist violence and communal strife and disharmony. To begin with, I want to recall our Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's statement. He said that 165 districts covering 13 States were affected by Naxalism. This is the single biggest internal security challenge to the country. To overcome this challenge, what are the steps being taken by the Government? The Common Minimum Programme has clearly indicated that the growth of extremist violence is not merely a law and order problem, but a deep socio-economic issue which has to be addressed more seriously. This was indicated in the Common Minimum Programme. So, when we talk about deep socio-economic issues, what are the steps being taken by the Government to overcome this socio-economic problem? In my view, implementation of radical land reform is one of the important issues. I want to say clearly that the Government is only paying lip service and it is not implementing any radical land reforms, even though lakhs of acres of Government land are lying vacant, and lack of land is one of the important issues for several lakhs of agricultural workers. Second is the problem of tribals who are getting exploited since independence of our country.

(Contd. by VK/3F)

VK/3F/4.35

SHRI SYED AZEEZ PASHA (CONTD): Even though we are nearing 60 years of our Independence, we are still not in a position to come out with a comprehensive legislation. I am surprised that when the Joint Select Committee has unanimously recommended certain steps, why isn't the Government having guts to put it forth before both the Houses of Parliament to get it passed? Several lakhs of Tribals are waiting for the passage of this Bill. But the Government is reluctant to get this Bill passed. They don't have a decent living; they don't have the right over the forestland. Once this Bill is passed, they will get a decent living and they will have a right over the forestland and they will also get job opportunities. These are some of the issues which have to be tackled. Unfortunately, the Government of Chhattisgarh has adopted a different tactic by organising 'Selva Judum'. They are motivating or provoking one Tribal against the other by arming them and by creating a situation of killing each other. The Government of Chhattisgarh is diverting the funds of the National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme for this purpose. This is not a correct step. This is not a solution to the problem of Naxalism in Chhattisgarh and other parts of the country.

Now coming to the communal situation. The demolition of the Babri Masjid and then the genocide in Gujarat have created a sense of insecurity among the minority community, which is the second biggest minority community in the world. You cannot say that democracy is progressing when the second biggest minority community is feeling insecure. In this connection, the other day, a delegation from Malegaon came to meet several leaders of various political parties. They are demanding only one simple thing that let the Government order a CBI inquiry against the culprits. I don't know what hurdle or problem is the Government facing to order a CBI inquiry. The law and order problem may be the problem of the State Government, but the Central Government can always intervene. I appeal to the hon. Home Minister who is sitting here to see that a CBI inquiry is ordered into this matter so that all the facts and figures can come before the public and the culprits are punished severely.

Lastly, I heard the discussion of representatives of various political parties. One of the serious concerns expressed by some of our friends was that by repealing POTA, the security of the country has been put at peril. I don't think that this oppressive legislation was going to check the problem of extremist violence or any other thing. If it is true, then in spite of having POTA, how was this sacred House of Parliament attacked; how was the Akshardham temple attacked and why couldn't the extremist violence be contained in the Kashmir Valley? Sir, I want to conclude by saying that POTA is not the panacea, is not the obtrusive legislation. It is the determined will of the Government which is gong to control or give proper internal security. (Ends)

(Followed by 3G)

RG/4.40/3G

MS. PRAMILA BOHIDAR (ORISSA): Sir, thank you for providing me this opportunity to participate in the discussion on such a grave matter. In the past also, we discussed about internal security after various incidents of violence in different parts of the country. The Government had assured about tackling the situation. Still violence is continuing unabated in many ways in many areas. The persons, involved in the 1993 Mumbai serial bomb blasts, are being sentenced after a period of 13 years. This means that those who are involved in disturbing internal security, by causing death and destruction, are not being tried speedily. It is, therefore, necessary to set up fast-track courts to punish the guilty so that our people have faith and confidence in our legal system.

The internal security of our country is disturbed by external forces as well as by internal disorder and disharmony and regional imbalances. Lack of opportunity of livelihood causes frustration among young people. They get easily misguided and go out of the mainstream. Internal security is related to food security, provision of health and education services, creation of employment opportunities, improvement of communication system, increase in economic activities, etc.

Due to historical and political reasons, the tribal dominated areas in Orissa and its neighbouring States have not developed even after 60 years of independence. The KBK districts of Orissa remain the most backward in the country. Therefore, these districts have the largest concentration of armed extremist groups.

Keeping the need to support security system in view, the Human Rights Commission, in the proceedings before the Apex Court, has suggested continuing the revised long-term action plan.

I would, therefore, suggest that foremost priority should be given to strengthen security forces deployed to counter terrorists' nefarious designs. While the intelligence network should be equipped with all necessary infrastructural facilities including information technology, equal focus should be on promoting economic activities and addressing other social developmental issues in the areas which are Naxalite and Maoist activities-prone. The Centre should ensure that financial constraints do not come in the way of building up a strong and viable security network, and no discrimination is done in any manner whatsoever between the States, as maintaining internal security is not restricted to one State alone, but is a national priority. (ENDS) (Continued by 3H)

3h/4.45/ks-ASC

DR. FAROOQ ABDULLAH (JAMMU AND KASHMIR): Thank you, Sir, for giving me this time.

National security is of vital importance. I am not here to play politics between the party-in-power and the party not in power. I would like to clear my statement first on Afzal Guru. A lot has been written about it and we would continue to say a lot about this. I would like to say very clearly that as far as judgment of the Supreme Court goes, I made that very clear that those judges made that judgment and they were within their power to make that judgment. I also want to make one thing very clear, what has already been made clear by the learned lawyer here, that from the very start of his trial, he did not get the right lawyers to defend him. What was made of my statement in the television that the 'nation will go up in flames'; it was not because I wanted to frighten the nation. I wanted to tell them what we were going through in our State and what effect it would have, as it was in the case of Maqbool Butt when he was hanged after 19 years in jail. For nineteen years, he was in jail and the sentence of death was passed on him! It was only when Mhatre was killed in Birmingham that they decided to hang him. Then also I had requested Mrs. Gandhi, at that stage, "Please, do not make this case for that person", but nobody listened. We are still paying the price of hanging Maqbool Butt to this day. There are people who went across, got trained and came back. And we have now a centre opened by them yesterday in downtown Srinagar in his name. The judge who passed that sentence, with all the security that was provided to him, was eliminated. That is why I said this, not to frighten our judiciary, but to tell the Government of the day, "Please take care". Otherwise, if the judges are eliminated, they will be afraid to pass sentences which are necessary for them to do.

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DR. FAROOQ ABDULLAH: They will be coming, I am sure

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DR. FAROOQ ABDULLAH: The two Ministers are here. It is good enough for them to be here because one of them is a Kashmiri. It is not a bad idea for him to listen to what Farooq Abdullah has to say.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: But this is the practice that the Minister concerned with the subject should make himself available...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He was here till... (Interruptions)

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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He had just gone. (Interruptions)

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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He was sitting here for such a long time.

DR. FAROOQ ABDULLAH: I would just repeat what I said so that the hon. Minister would hear what I have to say.

Sir, one of the most important things I wanted to clarify was on Afzal Guru, because a lot was made of it; and many of them burnt my images wherever they could because they said that I, probably, was anti-national. It is nothing new. Once, I was also called a Pakistani, a Khalistani, even an anti-national person. So, there is nothing that is new for Farooq Abdullah to accept, or, to be given these great trophies.

But, the tragedy of it was that they did not understand my sentiments behind it. We paid the price of Maqbool Butt's hanging -- which we are still paying. Now on Afzal Guru, I made it very clear in that television channel also that as far as we are concerned, the Supreme Court gave its verdict. Fine. He went then for the mercy petition. What I tell this House on this side as well as on that side is, let us understand that the mercy petition is now with the Government, with the President, and whatever the President decides, we will accept. But my warning at that time to the Government was necessary because we have paid the price of the judge who passed that sentence on Maqbool Butt and we could not save him with all the security that we gave him. That is why at that stage I said, "For God's sake, protect these judges who have passed the sentences because they may be under similar threats". It was not a threat to the judiciary. I never went that far to say that I am threatening the judiciary. It was only to awaken the Government and to say, "Please take care so that in future judges will not feel threatened", because if you eliminate one judge, others will be afraid for their life and may not pass sentences which will be necessary to be passed. (Contd. by 3j/tdb)

TDB/3J/4.50

DR. FAROOQ ABDULLAH (CONTD.): So also, I want to go away from this Afzal Guru's point now to the second most important point. Sir, it is a very nice book on internal security. But, I would like the hon. Minister and those of you who have this book to look at page 12. It says of the workings groups. And, out of this, the most important working group is on strengthening relations between the State and the Centre. The next sentence is, all of these working groups have been constituted by the State Government and deliberations are in progress. I would like to inform the hon. Home Minister that this important group on the strengthening of relations between the State and the Centre is not in operation. First, you had one judge, Mr. Abidi. Then, you had the man who was our Ambassador in America, Mr. Abid Hussain. He also did not work. Now, you have a third judge, and still there is no work going on on this most important group. Therefore, I would like to suggest to this House that if this very thing which has been put in this book is not correct, I wonder whether the other items that have been put in this book are anywhere near the truth. I am just telling you frankly, Sir. This is a wonderful book. But, if this one paragraph can give us this thing that it is on the wrong side, I wonder whether the other paragraphs have any standing at all.

Now, I would also like to bring to your notice one more thing. Sir, I have no doubt that there is definite decline in militancy. There is no doubt about it. Whatever one may say, but please remember one thing. The militants you have now got are far more trained than the ones that were before, and they were only trained for two weeks, and they were back in the State to fight. Today, they are using much more sophisticated methods and much more sophisticated machinery to fight. At the same time, Sir, if militancy has declined, which the Home Minister says so, then, why not, remove para-military forces and your Central Reserve Forces from the towns and increase the force of police? Sir, in Punjab -- those who are from Punjab here can vouch for this --the Punjab battle was won by the Punjab Police. When you strengthened them, they were the ones who succeeded in seeing that militancy went off. I think, Sir, the time has come, with militancy down, conditions getting better, let us trust Jammu and Kashmir Police, raise 35 battalions. When they are raised, then, gradually, over a period of time, start taking the para-military forces out. I do not say, 'reduce your border force'. Your border force is necessary, whether it is the Army, whether it is the BSF that you have to put. The borders have to be strengthened, that must be kept up. But, give Jammu and Kashmir Police more chances to fight militancy because they will be the ones who will fight because they know the language, they know the people. Sir, I would like to tell you that when I was the Chief Minister, I used to go to the Unified Command meetings. It was the Army bosses themselves who said to me that 'as Jammu and Kashmir Police has taken more responsibilities, we find that we are gaining ground'. And, that goes to the credit of that police force, Sir, that has done so much in getting to better situation in that place.

Sir, at the same time, I would like to say about one of the most important factors that is creating militancy. The tragedy, Sir, which we must understand is, sometimes we make one mistake, and we pay very heavily for it. It is my own police that I will tell you about. Sir, if you remember, and those in the Government must be remembering that one day, there was an incident near Anantnag.

(Contd. by 3k-kgg)

kgg/3k/4.55

DR. FAROOQ ABDULLAH (contd.): Before that, there was an incident that five people were picked up from the shops declared as terrorists. No whereabouts were known. These villagers were coming down to Anantnag to demonstrate against their disappearance. They passed through army pickets. No army picket touched them. They were only saying that what they wanted was justice. They were not saying 'Pakistan Zindabad', they were not saying 'Azadi', but they were saying, "We want justice." They came to this area just before Anantnag starts. There, the orders from the District Commissioner was to stop them from coming to the town. The police force, whoever they were, opened fire.

Immediately I flew from Jammu to that spot. Surprisingly, Sir, these people were saying that marchers were coming from 'This way', and they showed me the door on 'This side', of 90 degrees, bullet marks! I asked them, "Have we produced bullets and guns that can go at 90 degrees without any guided instrument in it?" They had fired directly at them and because they had made the mistake of doing it, they themselves fired the bullets into the doors to show that they used the weapons on us and we fired back.

I am grateful to the Government of the day and that was this Government and that was the lawyer who was speaking here, who was the Law Minister and gave me a retired judge from the South who held court and found that people who were guilty were chargesheeted. People got confidence that, yes, there is law, there is order. Unfortunately, sometimes, we make mistakes in the Government. Let us not blame Pakistan or you in the Centre or anybody in the Centre. It is we in the State at times that make mistakes and we have to pay a heavy price because people then start losing faith in the very democracy that they live in.

Sir, I was the one, when POTA was not introduced in the Centre, when it was only talked about, who put POTA in my State. Friends from that side and the ones who are not here used that with great force against Farooq Abdullah in the last elections. Why did Farooq Abdullah use POTA? Not to arrest innocent persons. It is not the law which is bad but it is the way you implement the law, that is bad. It is the way you want to implement the Constitution, like you used article 356 with impunity. Do not forget that in 1984 you dismissed my Government on flimsy ground of law and order. God knows whether you will ever be able to use such articles, which should disappear from our Constitution.

Constitution is how you implement it and that is how the law is. If you want to implement it rightly --- I do not know, POTA might have created trouble like TADA did; but my intentions were for the internal security, for the nation's safety, that my people could walk with freedom, that I could walk without Black Cat. But, that same clause was used against me to defeat me in every corner by saying, "Here is this black man who has done this POTA and he is responsible for what you are going through." Pity, you would never understand the people who stand by this nation. You will understand them only when they are dead and you will put medals on their graves! I said before, I do not need your medals. I stand as a man of the nation and I shall live and die as a man of the nation.

Therefore, I would like to tell you, Sir, that it is high time that we give the people the promise that the Prime Minister made that there will be no human rights violation. He said that there would be zero tolerance. (Contd. by kls/3l)

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