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VK/2L/3.00

SHRI N. JOTHI (CONTD): Don't disown your baby. It is your baby. The next one is Giridih in Jharkhand. I may be wrong in the usage of the word. What has happened there? The police armoury, not an ordinary bazaar was raided. You were all looking at it. In Koraput, a magazine was looted and arms were taken away. All this reflects on the yellowness of the Government and pauperism. What is your policy? Your policy is, "Oh, you are a Naxal. Please come and sit next to me. Let us be friends. I will give philosophies to you. Please come to the national mainstream. I will give you admonition. I will do this; I will do that." You do like this. Something happens between you and them in a closed corner. Some unauthorised persons go and talk to them. Thereafter the talk fails. The Naxal goes back to the jungle and suddenly pounces on the public. They are not troubling the bureaucrats or the Ministers. They are troubling the ordinary people. What you do is, you make empty promises. You were talking with ULFA; you were talking with Jammu and Kashmir extremists and you were talking with Naxalites. You are talking but doing nothing. You are talking, talking and talking and doing nothing. It reflects on what. It reflects on dissatisfaction towards you and raid on public. This is a credit. Please own it. Don't disown it. You talk as if you are all Ahimsa people; you are all Gandhiji's disciples; you are all Mahatma Gandhi's grandsons and that you always go on the right path. You all talk like this. Who brought TADA? You brought it. Don't say that somebody had brought TADA. Don't blame others. TADA was your own brainchild. You let loose it on whom? You let loose it on patriotic people. You let loose it on them. After that you are very happy. You let loose it on the people who are securing our borders. Thereafter, you have alienated them. Thereafter, you have disowned them. You yourself withdrew TADA. Shri Rajiv Gandhi brought TADA and Shri Narasimha Rao withdrew it. So, don't blame others. You are saying as if others have brought it and you then withdrew it and that you are all right. No, you are the people who have led it first.

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: But you misused it.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, neither does he know what is 'use', nor does he know what is 'misuse'.

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: Sir, POTA was misused in Tamil Nadu. Everybody knows it. TADA was misused in Tamil Nadu.....(Interruptions).

SHRI N. JOTHI: In Tamil Nadu, now ordinary laws are totally misused. (Interruptions). He is with us now. Sir, after the failure of talks with Naxalites in Andhra Pradesh, after their failure in Andhra Pradesh, what has happened? Sir, 700 advanced-technology rocket launchers were found there. This has happened after the failure of your talks. So, you please reform yourself first. Please assess yourself first whether your are going on the right path; whether your advisors are proper and whether you are having proper technological, philosophical, diplomatic and moral considerations in these matters. Kindly consider it. Whenever we say something, you all get angry with us and say, "Who is this fellow to teach us? Who are these people to tell us this?" This minority Government which has no locus standi rather than the extra fittings, and this Government is being run with loose parts and one particular ally is remaining outside and always * you all, this Government must realise and you must realise......

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*Expunged as ordered by the Chair.


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jothi, while speaking if you use a little better words, it will please the whole House.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, I am using correct words.

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, MINISTRY OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (SHRI JAIRAM RAMESH): What is *?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let me look into it.

SHRI N. JOTHI : I am saying screwdriver.

SHRI JAIRAM RAMESH: Being a lawyer, he should know that * is unparliamentary. (Followed by 2M)

RG/3.05/2M

SHRI N. JOTHI: According to me, the CPI (M) is * you. At times, they loose the nut; they come here and blame you.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is unparliamentary. It is removed.

SHRI N. JOTHI: I said about the usage of a screwdriver.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have your own way of putting things...(Interruptions)

SHRI N. JOTHI: I am talking about intolerance of those people, not about the Chair.

Sir, in the recent Mumbai blasts, hundreds of people died. What is the lesson that you have learnt out of it? Nothing. Immediately after that came the Malegaon incident. You all go on special flights, and say, "We are very sorry; this should not have happened. We will find out who is responsible for this. We will not allow the terrorists from across the border to enter our country." These are all mere speeches, and we are tired of speeches. Henceforth, at least change these words, "We

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*Expunged as ordered by the Chair.


will not allow cross border terrorism." Please don't use the same words. We have heard it hundreds of times, but no action has ever been taken. Now, what do they do in Israel when they are in trouble? I am not justifying that. But I am just giving you an example. If somebody troubles them, they go and hit against them...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: What are you talking?

SHRI N. JOTHI: Madam, it is my view. I am not carrying your view.

Likewise, if you feel that terrorists from Bangladesh or the terrorists from Pakistan are being encouraged by their respective Governments, go and hit their camps. But do not blame the Muslims. Earlier, in 70s and 80s, you were saying that the Sikhs were terrorists, and you brought TADA and slapped it against them. Now you are saying that Muslims are terrorists. You are pitching one group against the other, brother against brother. Please stop that. Every Hindu has started suspecting Muslims, and every Muslim has started suspecting Hindus. This is the culture you have brought in. This is the culture of the Congress (I). Earlier, they said that all Sikhs were bad people...

SHRI JAIRAM RAMESH: It is your own interpretation.

SHRI N. JOTHI: It is my view, and people take that view. You pitch one person against the other, and, through that, you want to run the Government. What is the difference between you and the British? They did the same thing -- 'Divide and Rule'. Please change your modus operandi and your approach in these matters. If you want this country to be free from terrorist activities, you have to change certain things somewhere. Right from the start, you have to change yourself totally. Your ways and approach, so far, have not yielded any result, except your own face being aired on television quite often. I can give you a clue. This is what I have ascertained from various people, and it is for you to verify it. Wherever RDX is found, they say, it has ISI connection, and wherever cycle bombs are used or the cycle technology is used, they say, it has connection with Bangladesh. This is the information which I have received as on ordinary member, coming from a remote area of Tamil Nadu, where baashan was peacefulness up till May; of course, I will not endorse the present situation...(Interruptions) You are now hobnobbing with your own bomb people. I warn you, please be careful. You have yourself declared that Naxalism has spread in 180-185 districts, and that 100-150 districts are communally disturbed. If 180-185 districts are Naxal-prone, and 1001-50 districts are communally disturbed, then, what remains? (Continued by 2O)

2n/3.10/ks

SHRI N. JOTHI (CONTD.): What remains is well-guarded bungalows of the Ministers of the Union Government. They alone are peaceful, not the rest of the public. (Interruptions) What is this, Sir? You have to help me.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Do not take note of it.

SHRI N. JOTHI: If I say something about Sonia Gandhi, would they keep quiet?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That is not going on record. Why are you worried? He is sitting and talking. That is not going on record. Whatever comment is made while sitting does not go on record. (Interruptions)

SHRI N. JOTHI: If I start talking about their leader...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. You talk about internal security.

SHRI N. JOTHI: They must know that internal security cannot be maintained by killing others; internal security can be maintained only if they have introspection about the policies they have adopted so far. The time has come when you should have introspection about the policies that you have adopted so far.

Sir, right from the day I took oath in this House, I have had a feeling that the Central Government is run by officers alone, and not by politicians. You all get carried away by the officers. And I could say that the present Government gets carried away much more by officers. Maybe, you are overly working on other matters, or you are not in a position to concentrate.

Sir, I have a great admiration for Shri Shivraj Patil. Whether he likes me or not, I really like him very much. The first reason is that he is a lawyer; he is from my own fraternity. The second reason is that he always keeps a smiling face, except when he looks at me! I like those pleasing manners very much. But I want to pray to God! Sir, so far, you have managed somehow or the other; but the future days are not good. Please be a little more careful. Take us also into confidence. Please take our suggestions also in the matter. Sir, if anything could occur in Mumbai, you may kindly understand that it could occur anywhere else in India. Don't treat Members of other parties as unwanted people. We are also of some use to you, if your own colleagues are not.

Sir, I wish to appeal to you as an Indian citizen. The internal security situation is very much alarming. If you want to retrieve this country to a peaceful situation, so that your party is also strengthened further, kindly take our views also. Have frequent meetings with all the political parties.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH. PATIL: Why don't you give your views on the floor of the House?

SHRI N. JOTHI: I am giving my views now. Please have meetings of all the political parties, the recognised political parties, both regional and national, frequently. And do not shun them away. We are not sharing power with you but we want to share the concerns of this nation. Please take us into confidence. Do not treat the Samata Party as unwanted, or Mulayam Singh as unwanted or Shrimati Jayalalitha as unwanted. Do not go by those things. We might also be of some use to you. We could be more useful to you than others. Please have our views. We have also ruled the States. We have also ruled at the Centre. We also know a little about it.

Sir, another suggestion that I wish to make is this. I have had experience as a lawyer. Normally, the repetition of an occurrence or an incident leads to a common pattern; a thief would always have a particular pattern of theft. Like that, terrorists also have a particular pattern in striking at public and carrying out acts of terrorism. It is not difficult to appreciate; it is very easy to understand. What you require is courage, courage to go across the border and strike at these camps where training is being given to them. (Contd. by 2o/tdb)

TDB/2O/3.15

SHRI N. JOTHI (CONTD.): Please do that. Unless you do that, there is no point in safeguarding ourselves. It is something like a saying in Tamil meaning, whoever is afraid of tiger, please land on me, so that he will be very safe. See, like that, don't keep yourselves within your borders, and try to control something that is coming from outside the borders. You have to do something by crossing your borders also to eliminate those camps. As long as those camps persist in your neighbouring countries, your internal security will be a problem. So, this is a matter to be tackled not only by the Home Ministry but also by the Defence Ministry. This is what I feel, Sir.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, Mr. Ram Jethmalani.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, I will conclude in two minutes.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude now. You have taken the maximum time.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, I rarely speak.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: When you speak, you take all the time which you have given up.

MR. N. JOTHI: Sir, look at page 39 of this insolvency notebook, the yellow book. Sir, kindly see, at page 39, the increase in the number of naxalite activities after you come to power; after your talks with the naxalites; after the failure thereof. In 2004, the number of incidents is 310. In 2005, the number of incidents is 532. As far as the situation of 2006 is concerned, we don't have the information at hand.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: It is given on page 40.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, I am talking about page 39. I will come to page 40 a little later

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jothi, no little later. You cannot take your own time and go on leisurely. There is a time constraint. Please conclude now.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, we are talking on internal security.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude now. ...(Interruptions)... Everybody is talking on it. Please conclude now. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, internal security is not somebody's security, my own security.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Don't worry, you are safe.

SHRI N. JOTHI: It is concerned with the security of the whole nation. And we must address it in all seriousness.

MR.DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jothi, please conclude now.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Yes, Sir, I am concluding. Sir, the number of police personnel killed has increased from six to 22. The number of civilians killed has increased from 16 to 184, and the number of naxalites killed has increased from 47 to 160. That means, what? More naxalites are coming in. ...(Interruptions)... You have to give me some more time, Sir.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: See, you were about to conclude.

Then, again, you have started...(Interruptions)...

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, the hon. Minister prompted me.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Sir, give him two more minutes. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI N. JOTHI: Now, I come to page 40. As per page 40, the number of incidents in 2006, so far, is 163. Sir, you have to cross two more months.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: From 449 it has come down to 163.

SHRI N. JOTHI: But, rocket launchers have come, in between. Earlier, there were no rocket launchers because your fraternal party is saying, they are producing it at Ambattur, after June. After 13th May...

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: Sir, in case the rocket launchers were produced...(Interruptions)...

SHRI N. JOTHI: After 13th May, the DMK Government... ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am sorry. I have to call the next speaker. Mr. Ram Jethmalaniji. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI N. JOTHI: They have produced it, and sending it. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, we are speaking about our scientists. ...(Interruptions)... More scientists are there, after the DMK Government came to power.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude now, Mr. Jothi.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, my final request to you is this. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, you want me to conclude or you want me to read?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no; please conclude.

SHRI N. JOTHI: So, I will conclude this way, in my own way. Sir, the rocket launchers have come from Tamil Nadu, after May 13th. It is a red signal.

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: No, Sir. The hon. Member is giving wrong information to the House.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, even Tamil Nadu is not safe now. Within six months, it has happened. Sir, have your one eye on Tamil Nadu also. Yes, it is very dangerous. It is brewing now. It is a hotbed now. It is a springboard now for all these activities. Sir, in your heart of hearts, you note this. If you take care of Tamil Nadu scenario, half of this country will be safe in future. Thank you, Sir. (Ends) (Followed by 2p-kgg)

kgg/3.20/2p

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (NOMINATED): Thank you, Sir. Sir, this subject is doubtless of great importance affecting as it does almost everyone in the country and the humbler the more vulnerable. Frankly, Sir, I do not know where to start but, I think, I should start with a little interlude between my friend Mr. Jothi and the Home Minister.

I think, Sir, the first thing that I should like to start with is a very serious danger which is being posed strangely and paradoxically by our obsession with Press publicity. You might wonder how. Look at the morning's "The Hindu" today. It carries a report by Vice-Admiral Bedi, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Southern Naval Command. They were holding Navy Week celebrations and they decided that admission of the public to witness the celebrations would be restricted. I have no quarrel with that decision. But, Sir, what I quarrel with is that this made the Vice-Admiral hold a Press conference at which the Vice-Admiral said, "First thing, we do not have a very good report on the security situation. Full-fledged attack on the defence training establishment of Dehra Dun was nipped in the bud two years ago." What has a justification for restricting public entry into the current Navy Week celebrations got to do with their nipping in the bud an attack which was supposed to be taking place on the defence training establishment in Dehra Dun?

Obviously, the Vice-Admiral wanted to use this occasion for some praise and for some publicity. But it did not occur to him that he committed a vicious breach of the most elementary security intelligence operations. You do not yield to your opponent information which is true. You have to yield them information which misleads him. You tell him that we know, as the Home Minister himself the other day said, 'You are trying to occupy some adjoining islands and trying to get some space in the sea so that you would be able to mount an attack on us'. You should tell them directly the opposite. You should not tell them that you know about that. You should tell them that you do not know anything about it so that they should attack when you know and then you should be able to deal with them.

Sir, this habit of going to the Press and talking about security matters is some activity which has got to be avoided like poison. When Mr. Jothi said, "I have some proposals to give you, please take us into confidence", the Home Minister retorted saying, "Why do not you say this on the floor of the House?" If Mr. Jothi had succumbed to this and given his proposals for ensuring security on the floor of the House, I would have considered him anti-national. All these are secret matters which should be discussed and discovered in secret conclaves.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Would you yield for a minute?

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I can yield for you any time for any thing.

(Followed by kls/2q)

KLS/2Q-3.25

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: First of all, do not go by what you read in the newspapers. You yourself get the news confirmed and then make a comment. If you think that the DGs and the Home Minister should not sit together and discuss the situation, then where is the occasion? Now the statements, which have appeared in the newspapers, are not correct.... (Interruptions)... This statement, which has been alleged to have been made, was not made to the public at large nor to the media persons but to the DGs, the Directors-General of the State Police. If you do not get the information and keep commenting on this, what is it that we are creating? Confusion! Or, are we enlightening ourselves? ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am not ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Newspapers are publishing everything. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I am talking of this morning reports, the speech of this gentleman. But when you say, "don't," I have never said anything where you made your statement. ...(Interruptions)... I read about it in the newspapers. But when you told Mr. Jothi, let us discuss it on the floor of the House, floor of the House is the least qualified place for discussing how to carry on secrecy operation. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: It was one year before. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I quoted only what is said this morning about this gentleman. ...(Interruptions)... What do I do if a news item appears in a responsible newspaper? ...(Interruptions)... What do I do? First I write to the gentleman. ....(Interruptions)... So, I first write to the Hindu. ...(Interruptions)...That imposes on us a burden which I do not think...(Interruptions)...

SHRI AMAR SINGH: What will happen if he does not come on the line? (Interruptions)... The Editor of the Hindu...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Now, as I said, about collecting security intelligence, keep that intelligence to yourself and do not disclose it to your enemies. Disclose to them the contrary of it. If you think and you know about it that your defence establishments are absolutely secure because of your vigilance, tell them that they are most insecure. We have no danger at all; we have never felt any danger and they cannot penetrate. Let them come and then deal with them. That is the way in which you must resolve these problems.

(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI) IN THE CHAIR)

Now, Sir, then he said that the Navy is now adding more teeth to its air fleet, we are now buying 16 MiG-29K aircraft from Russia and the delivery will take place in two instalments in 2007 and 2008. In other words, you are letting your enemies know that at least in 2006 we do not have enough teeth for our naval defence. I mean he is a military officer. According to me, the man should be pulled up and told that these are not the things, which you have to go on discussing with the Press and disclosing to the Press. If an arms dealer wants to secure this information that India is now acquiring these MiG-29, you will haul him up under the Official Secrets Act and keep him in jail for five years. Do something about it, these officers. Now let me deal with some of the points which have been made because as non-party Members we have such a limited time that we have to hurry up for everything but only, Sir, when a very friendly figure sits there, we have a full expression for our views. Now, Sir, one of the points that has been made is that you must toughen up our legislation, anti-terror legislation. Now, Sir, let me tell this House and let me tell my hon. friend, the Home Minister, please do not fall into this trap ever. The greatest success of terrorist activity is to convert the target state into a terrorist state. That is their greatest moral and spiritual triumph and when you begin to behave like them. What is this tough legislation you are talking about? TADA and POTA did not prevent terrorism. They will never do it. What is the meaning of tough legislation? You increase the penalty. Now, the penalty of death -- there is no other penalty. (Contd by 2r)

NBR-MCM/2R/3.30.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): Then, what else can you do with tough legislation? Reduce the burden of proof on the prosecution. It was only yesterday at an International Law Conference, a responsible lawyer got up and said, 'let us have an anti-terror law. A terrorist shall be presumed to be guilty until he proves the contrary.' Now, Sir, I hope that we realise that we have other civilized values to defend. Terrorism is not the only thing we have to guard against. It is this kind of legislation which was misused all along against, first, the Sikhs and then the Muslims, and, tough legislation is not the answer to the problem. The problem is of enforcement of the existing law. After all, terrorism means murder of innocent and other offences. They are all offences under the Penal Code. They are non-bailable offences. They are punishable with life or death. The point is you must be able to catch them. You must be able to catch them and procure evidence by civilized methods. Then, you have a system of justice which is swift and sure, not that a trial goes on for 13 or 14 years in which some accused become lunatics, some die and some are so reconciled to jail life that they will prefer to remain there for the rest of their life. Unless our criminal justice system becomes completely swift and sure, be sure, the deterrent value of all punishment is gone and nothing will happen.

I want to raise Afzal case, which is being politicised so much. I don't know whether Afzal was a suicide bomber. But, at least, the charge made against him was that he was a conspirator with suicide bombers. Sir, to a suicide bomber death means nothing. On the contrary, life imprisonment to him is a much bigger punishment. Why? It is because his indoctrination is that the moment you die; within the next few seconds you are going to meet the houris in heaven. You have to keep him away from the houris as long as you can. Keep him for life in jail so that he does not meet those women. So, Sir, the death sentence does not serve any purpose.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I don't understand why women brought into this sort of argument.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: The houris are brought in by indoctrination.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, is this the issue to be discussed here?

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Why should I not talk about women? I like them.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: This is sexy remark made on the floor of the House. This is really objectionable.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: There is nothing objectionable.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Mr. Jethmalani, you are doing well. Please carryon with your speech.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: This tough legislation is of no use.

The power of the hon. President, again, is limited. Again, hon. Home Minister said that the President will decide. The hon. President will decide on the advice of the Cabinet. He cannot exercise independent powers outside the Cabinet's advice. He is bound by the advice of the Cabinet in this matter. And the Government has to decide. There is no doubt about it. But, I am quite sure, that the Government will consider the pros and cons of this whole situation. Whatever points are raised in the Mercy Petition will be considered. One thing must be said in favour of that man. I want to say that the man asked for being defended by four lawyers and he gave their names. The judge contacted two. Both of them said, 'No.' Thereafter, the judge did not contact the other two in the list of four, nor did he contact any one in the list of lawyers which exist in every court who are supposed to do free work. But, Sir, I regret to say that he got a junior, raw advocate. I hope, I am not defaming the lawyer. But the defence was so badly conducted that the poor fellow never got a fair trial under any circumstances. So, Sir, we are not defending Mr. Afzal. We have to think of purity and the greatness of our legal system. When a person, who is standing his trial for life, asks for the service of a lawyer, it is the professional duty of a lawyer to respond and to appear free, without charges and for lawyers to refuse is a denial of justice and it makes the entire trial unworthy of being called a trial. (CONTD. BY VP "2S")

VP/3.35/2S

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): So, if Afzal has to be pardoned, he should be pardoned because we are trying to bring back the reputation of our Judicial system, not because of any sympathy with Afzal. I am quite sure that even if he had been defended by an able lawyer like Mr. Arun Jaitley, probably, the result would have been the same, maybe. But, then, at least, nobody would have been able to say that the legal system has failed. The legal system has done its job and the man has been found guilty after a good and a fair trial. So, Sir, ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI JAIRAM RAMESH: What would have happened if Mr. Jothi had defended him. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI AMAR SINGH: What about Mr. Abhishek Manu Singhvi?

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: He is not a criminal lawyer. ...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): This is not a court room, so, I think, we can carry on with the debate here.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: The next point which I wish to make is this. And, this is for the benefit of my friends there on that side. Security depends on national solidarity. Our own nationals, when they are denied security, dignity, equality and fraternity, would become hospitable soil for providing shelter and helping terrorists. They will become a recruiting ground for terrorists. And, they will, perhaps, themselves become recruits in the terrorist lines. Now, Sir, I do not wish to say anything. But, I want everybody, particularly, my friends on that side to ask their own conscience a question. Don't answer it in public; answer it to your own conscience. Have you promoted solidarity or have you produced a kind of division which creates motivation for people joining the lines of terrorists and becoming anti-nationals? I leave it at that. This is a matter which everybody in this whole House should consider, and consider carefully and consult his own conscience.

Then, Sir, the next point which I wish to again mention is that compromise with terrorists is suicidal. If terrorists get a feeling that our target is a coward, that he wishes to avoid terrorism, wishes to avoid the consequences of terrorist activity, is willing to compromise with us, terrorism will flourish. It will never come to an end. Sir, I regret that in the past when our famous leader, Mr. V.P. Singh was the Prime Minister, and that lady was abducted by the so-called terrorists. To secure liberty of that girl, we compromised and handed over a large number of terrorists in exchange. This is a kind of thing, which you must learn never, never to do.

Sir, when our Indian Airlines plane was hijacked during the reign of Shri Atalji...(Interruptions)... I am now talking of a time when Shri Atalji was the Prime Minister and the Indian Airlines plane was hijacked. First of all, Sir, think of our security. They are talking big about security. They depended upon a Security Advisor, who allowed the plane to go away from Amritsar where a school mob could have stopped it. And the school mob, by putting a few chairs and benches in front of that plane could have stopped that plane from taking off from the Srinagar Airport. You allowed it to fly in spite of the fact that they had one hour and forty-five minutes time in Amritsar. I told them that such a Security Advisor should be dismissed forthwith. But they did not do it because they depended so much on that Security Advisor. Then, when the plane got into Kandahar, and they were thinking of making this exchange, I happened to be, at that time, somewhere in Madurai. I was a Minister. On the cell phone I called up the Prime Minister and I said, "Please take these terrorists from the jail cells, keep soldiers with guns on their head, and tell those people that the first passenger of the Indian Airline you shoot, we are going to shoot down all your terrorists here." (Cont. by 2T)

PK/MP/2T/3.40

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): And nobody listens, and the greatest humiliation which I have ever suffered as an Indian citizen is that when my Minister, a responsible Minister of the Union Government, * and goes and makes home delivery of terrorists to their compatriots in Kandahar. Therefore, Sir, let us...(Interruptions)..

.. ׻ֵ : ֻ֮ , ֯ ײ֮ ...(־֮֬)... ֯ ײ֮ ...(־֮֬)....

ָ֕ : ָ ֮֯ ׸և ...(־֮֬)...֮֯ ִֵ ׸և օ

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I was; I agree. I was ashamed of it, and I did my best to prevent it...(Interruptions).. This is a recorded fact which nobody can deny. Therefore, let us not trade charges here, who is soft and who is not. Everybody seems to be soft in his own way. This softness has got to be avoided. Let us all resolve that never, never shall we surrender to terrorists in spite of the fact that it may involve our own brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, or our dearest friends. We will sacrifice them but we will not sacrifice the liberty and the dignity of this country. If you do that, the terrorists will find that they are not really in good business. Now, they find that they are in good business. Sir, the next thing is this. After all, Sir, as regards our terrorists problems, apart from what is happening in the North East, to some extent, and what is happening in the South, the naxalite menace, and so on, forgetting that, Sir, the major problem is Kashmir. In 1992, the Security Council started taking interest in international terrorism. Their first Resolution was of 1992 when they said that the Security Council would hereafter deal with international terrorism. Sir, India didn't move. In 1999, two years before

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

what happened on September 11, in New York, they had passed a Resolution imposing sanctions on the Al Qaida. The Security Council did it. There was not a ripple in India. We were sleeping. We thought that nothing will come to us and we are not to be worried at all. We should have then extended a word of praise to the Security Council that you have now entered a new field, and we are prepared to cooperate with you in curbing international terrorism. Nothing of that kind happened, because, Sir, we have got some allergy to the Security Council and all these organisations which the World Body has created. And, then, Sir...(Time-bell)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): A friendly reminder from a friendly face.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Yes, Sir, I won't take long. Sir, as I said, today, if Kashmir is the main problem, first of all, please strengthen the peace process, compel the Government to strengthen it, do it with a little more hurry, with a little more sense of urgency. Sir I have no doubt that the peace process is like the holding of wedding in a minefield. There also, those who conduct the peace process themselves are in serious danger. But, today, why don't you talk to the Security Council and tell them that 'on both sides of the LoC please post your peace corps'? Invite the peace corps under the United Nation's auspices; keep them on both sides of the LoC and see if terrorism does not disappear. But, Sir, there is nobody even to take advice, nobody listens to anybody else. This is some kind of a thing which is going on in secret conclave. Who takes these decisions, we don't know. Lastly, again, I am going back to July 1998. Your Government abstained from the creation of the International Criminal Court which has now, fortunately, come into existence. In spite of the obstructions by India and America, that Court has come into existence and that Court is supposed to deal with all big crimes, particularly, crimes against humanity, which includes terrorism. Please reverse that decision of July 1998; it was an absurd decision and it is an absurd continuance of that decision, but nobody seems to be applying his mind to that problem. The International Criminal Court has started functioning. Let India take its rightful place now and, perhaps, you will have one Indian judge or two Indian judges out of the 18 on that court, and that is one way of dealing with international terrorism. Sir, I hope I have not really misused your goodness. Thank you. (Ends)

(Followed by 2U)

ASC-PB/2U/3.45

ִ ̴֕ (ָ Ϥ):  ָ, ֮֯ ֕ ָ ֮ פ , ׻֋ ֯ ָ ֲ ٻִֵ ֵ , ֮ ָ כ֮ ָ, ִϤ׵ әԻ ֌׸ ׻֋ ֛ ָ̟ ֮ ָ, ֤֕ ֤ 13,000 ִϤ׵ ׮ֵָ ևԯߋ ױָ ׾ֳ ֵָ ֓ ײ 85% ִֵ ܵ ֵ֤֤ ֲԤ և, ָ ֵ ׻ ָָ օ ָ, ֛ ֣ ׸ ֟ , ֱ ֟ ֟ war against terrorism ׻֋ ֵ-ֵ ֮ ֮֋ ֟ , ׻֋ ֟ , ֻ֟ ֮և ֟ , ֮և ֟ , ׻֋ ֵ֮ ֟ , war against ׻֕ ֟ ֟ ױ־ָ֮ ֤ ׮֯֙ ׻֋ ֮ ֵ֮ ֟, ׻֋ ֻ֟ ֵ֮ ֟օ ָ ֣ ׻֕ ֛ ֻ ִϤ׵ ֛ ֻ ֤ פ֮ 1984 ֣ ֛ ֤ , ֮ ָ ֋ , 1989 ׻ֵ֮ ֤ , 1992-1993 㴲և ֤ , 2002 ָ֟ ֤ , ֕ ׸ ֕ ״ֻ ߅ 㴲և ֤ 2500 ̸֤ , ָ ֵ, ̤֟ ? ״׻֙ ? ׸ ? 247 Ù ָ ֵ ׸ʹ , ̤֟ ָ֟ 2002 3000 פ ֵ, ̤֟ ? ֱ 80-85 ֻ פ ֋, ׸ ָ ֵ - ָ ֮ , әԻ ֌׸ ֛ ָ̟ ֮ ֲ ׻֋ ָ ֵ֮ ֵ , ִ֮ և ָ ̴߮ ָ ֮ ֻ , ֲ ׻֋ ָ ֮ ֵ֮ ֵ , - ֮ ֻ ָ, ֤֕ ֌ , ֲ ֜ ֤֕ ֲ ֟ , ֲ ִ , ָ ֟ ֟ , ָ ֣ 㻴 ֤ ߅ ֌͟, ֲ Ӥ ֻ ӛ և , ־֮ ֛ ָ ָ ֋ 1857 ̤ , ֲ ֲ ־֮ ֛ ָ ָ ֋ 1860 ׻ ꌙ ֵ֮ ֵօ ֌ ָָ ֮֟ ß֮ , ֮֟ ָ־ ߅ ָָ ָ ָ־ ֮֟ ׻֋ 1860 ׻ ꌙ ֵ֮ ֵ פ ֵ ו֮֟ ß׮ֵ ָ, ß֮ ׻ ָ ֕ ֵ ?

ָ 1947 ֻ ֋, ֕ Ӥ ָ, פ ֣ ִ , ߤ ֟ ֱ ֮ ֮ ß פֵ , ֕ 廴-֤ ֜ ־֮ ß ָ ֲ 㻴 ևֱ ֜ , ֤֟ ֮ ֕ , ״׮Ù , ׻֋ ֟ ָ ֮ ֻ? ֯ ֟ , ָ . ֺ , 㴲և Ù , ֌ ִֻ֮ ִ ׻ֵ ֮ օ ֤ ָ׸ , ֮ ֲָ ֜ ֛-֛ --ִ , ִ֕ ֜֟ , ֻߴ , ֻ֟ , ֮ ָ߱ ֣ ִ ֻ֟ ָָ ߸ ֮ ֵָ ִ ָ ߸ ֵ 㴲և Ù ։ , Ù ։ ָָ ֵ ֤ ׻ Ù֮ פ ָ ֵօ ֲ ָ ֻֿ և ָ ֋ ״ֻ, ֋ ֮ ߸ ֻ ִ ׻֋ ֵ , ֵ ֯ ִ ? ױ ָ ֋ ׻֋ ֯ ָ ֟ (2w/LT ָ ֿ:)

ASC/LP/3.50/2W

ִ ̴֕ (֟) : ֕ әֻ ֌׸ ֲ ֛ ִ ֯ Ӳև, ß֮ ֌׸ ֜ , ־ ֣ ֻ օ ֤ Ӥ ֵօ ֻ֟ ִ ױ ֛ ֟ օ ִ ֻ ֮ ֻօ ֋ ׻ ֻ ֮ ֻ֯ ׮ֻ, ֛ Ӥ ֻ ָ ֻ֯ ָ և ִ ֮ ָ ֻ օ ָ ߕ ֵօ Ӳև ֵօ , ָ ֟ , ׻ֵ ֵ, ָ, ֮ ֹ߅ ָ, ֯ פֵ , ָ ֟օ ֜-׻ ־֮ ָָ ֵօ ָ ֻ֟ ֕ ו֋ ֻ ׻ Ù֮ ײ֚, ֯ ִ֮ ֛ ָ פ ֋ ֵ ֟ , ָ ֮ ֟ , ֟ օ ߕ ٻִֵ Ӥ ֵօ և ״׮Ù ֟ , Ӧ ֮ Ӳև ֵ, ֕ ӌָ ԅ ָ ֮ ֻ? ֯ ֟ Ӳև ָ֙ ׮ֻ֓ ִ֮֟ ״ֻ ևԅ ׮ֻ֓ ִ֮֟ ״ֻ֮ ֤ ׻ ֻ ִ֮֟ ֻ ߅ ָ ߮ ֤ ױ Ӳև ָ֙ Ù , ָ ׮֤ ֋ ױ ׻ ֻ ִ֮֟ ֻ ֻ פօ ֤ ־֮, , ܾ֕ , ӌָ ִ ָ ָ פ ֵօ ָ ֤ ׻ ֻ ָָ ָָ ֤ ׮ֻ֓ ֻ֟ , ׻֙ וÙ ֻ֟ 302 ׸ ֟ ֻ ֤ ֵ, ֕ ׻ ָָ ֻ ֻ֟ ֮ ׻֋ ևԅ ָ, ֱ ִָ ? ִָ ָ ֱ ֟ ? ָ ֵ ֯ և, ָ™ ָָ ָ ֟ ֟, ֯ և ߱ ״׮Ù ִ֮ ׾ָֻ־ ִ, וӤ , ָ ֿ ִ֮ ֻ , - ײß֮ ֻ , ֕ ֿ ״ֻ ָ™ և ֕ - ֻ ֋ ״׮Ù , , ֮ ֻ ߠ * ֻօ ֕ և ܾ֕ ׾ ݵָ ׻ ֻ Ӳև ֱ ָ ֕ ֻ ֕ ֱ ֕ ֮֯ Ӳև Ù ֕ ״ֻ ֺ ֕ ו֋, ו֮ Ù , , ߿֮ ִ ׻ ֲָ Õ֤ ֤, Ӳև ֛, Ӳև ֤֟ ֕ Ӳև Ù օ ֕ ו֋, ֯ ֕ ֯ ֕ ֛ ו֮ ֕ "֮ ֮ ָ , ִ߮ ֻ֟ ׿ " ֕ ֮ ֟, ֕ ִ֕־֤ ֙ ֻ֟ , ָ Ӧ .. ָ , ֻ ָ ٻִֵ ָ 103 20 ָ ִֵ ֤ ָָ ֻ֟ ָ ִֵ Ӳև ָָ ִ ؙ ֻ פ ָ֓ ׾ָ ִ 27 ָ ָ Ϥ ָָ

---------------------------------------------------------

* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

ָ™ ָָ ָ״ֿ֮ ׻֋ ָ פ 21 ־ִָ ִֵ ֤ ׿־֕ ؙ ֯ ֟ ֱ פ ֵ ޛ ִ , ֯ ؙ ۠ פ כ ָ ׾ָֻ־ ִ ؙ ؙ ֵ, ֤ ؙ ևԅ ִ ؙ֠ , ׻֋ ӕ ׻֟ ָ פ ֵ ׻֟ ӕ ָ ֕ ֚ , ߙ Ӳև ؙ ߅ ֟ ױָ֯ß ֛ , ָ ؙ, ֯ , ߙ ӕ , ؙ ָ ָ כ״֮֮ ־ ֣ ֤֟ ֟ ߅ ָ, ֯ , ֯ ֟ ו֋ ָ™ , ֻӾ ֯ן ָ ֻ օ ֯ן ָ ֻӾ פ Ӥ - ׻ ֻ ֻ - ֤ ֤ ֯ן ӛ (2x/nb/ָ ָ

NB/HK/2X/3.55

ִ ̴֕ (֟) : פ ֤ ֯ן ־ ֟ ֵ ֲ֟ ևԅ ߮ 3 ָ .., ׻ ֻ ײß֮ , ָ Ù , ֋ ָ ֲָ ߸ ׸ ֛֛ ֮ ֻ ײß֮ ֟ , ָ֢ ֻ ֟ , ߸ ֟ , ָ ֲ ׻, ײß֮ ߙ ߅ , ׸ ײß֮ ָ ֕ , ׯ֔ ֻ 㴴 פ ׻ ֛ ֯ ֟ ָ ֌׸ ֮ ֛ lapse ? ָ פ ׻ ׻ ָ֤ ֋ ָ ߙ , ָ ֵ, ֱ ֛ פ ֋ ׻ , ָ ׻ ָ ֯ ֟ , , , ִ--ִָ, ׮־֙ ֜ ֋ , ֕ ֻߴ , ָֿ֮߱ ֻߴ , , ֵ , ֌ ֲ ֿ ״ֻ , ִ ֿ ו ֜ ֿ ֤ ֲֵ ևԅ ӌֵָ ֟ ֻ֟ ֟ ָ-ָ .. , Ӳև ״ָֿ ָ Ù ֮ ׻ֵ Ӳև Ù ֻ , ָ ֛ ׻ֵ ֕ , ָ Ù ֲ ִ ֵ, ֲ ִ ֵօ ָ Ù ֮ ׾֮֕ ָ , ִ ׻ֵ , ֻ֟ , ׮ֵ ߛ ִ ׻ֵ , ֻ֟, ֯ ֻ ו֋, ֯ ֟ ӌֵָ , ֯ ӌֵָ , ָ߲ ׻ , ו֮ ֮ ֵ ֲֺ , ָ-ָ ׻֋ ָ֋ ֟

֛ ֣ ״׮Ù Ӳև ֣ ֛ 㻴 ֤ , ֻ֟ , ָ ֋ , ֻ פ ֵ, ָ ֵօ ٻִֵ ֻ פӲָ ִֻ ֵ ӌֵָ և ֋, ָ™ ָָ ӌֵָ ֟, ? ֮ ? ֻ ֕ ֻ , ֻ ׻֋ ֕ SIMI ָ ֲӤ , և, ֮ SIMI ָ ֲӤ ׻֋ և և SIMI Ùߙ֮ ֮֟ û״ ֕ ֮ כ֮ ֻ֟ , , ָ ֯ ׸ ֯ ֺ ָ ֲӤ և, ִ RSS ߾ָ ָ ׻֟ .... (־֮֬)

ֵ֮ ֻ ָ : RSS ֟ כ ... (־֮֬)

ִ ̴֕ : ֟ ׮֋ .... (־֮֬) ߾ָ ָ ִ ׻ , -ה ׻ , ׻ ™ ֮֋ .... (־֮֬) ֯ ִ .... (־֮֬) , ֯ ו֋ օ ָ־ ӛ ֮ ֣ ֟, ™ ֮ , Ɵ ִֻ֮ ã֮ - ײß֮ ß֮ ... (־֮֬) * ֮ .... (־֮֬) և ֟ ֋, ֯ ֤ ֟ .... (־֮֬) ֋, ֕ internal security ָ .... (־֮֬) ֓և , ֓և .... (־֮֬)

------------------------------------

* Not recorded.

ֵָ : ֯ .... (־֮֬)

ֳ֬ ( פ ס־) : ֯ և .... (־֮֬) , ֯ և .... (־֮֬) ֟ ֟ , ֯ և .... (־֮֬) Azmi ji, please conclude. ..(Interruptions).. Please conclude. ..(Interruptions)..

.. ׻ֵ : ֟ ..... (־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Let me handle this. ..(Interruptions).. ֋, ֟ .... (־֮֬) ׻ֵ , ߕ ֟ ו֋ .... (־֮֬) ̴֕ , ״֮֙ ָ ך, I personally feel that he has not said anything which is unparliamentary. Let him finish. You can refute when your turn comes. Azmiji, please conclude. (2Y/AKG ָ )

AKG-KSK/2Y/4.00

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ׻ ֻև, ָ פ ֋ ... (־֮֬) ...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Azmiji, please conclude...(Interruptions).

.. ׻ֵ : ֯ٻִֵ ֟ ִ banned organisation , ֣ ... (־֮֬) ...

ֳ֬ : ׻ֵ , ֯ ֟ ִ և ... (־֮֬) ... ̴֕ , ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ...

ִ ̴֕ : ָ ׸Ù և֮ ... (־֮֬) ...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: ̴֕ , ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... Let me also please clarify, objection ִ banned organisation , comparison ָ organisation ֣, banned , ֵ֤ ߅

ߴ֟ Ӥ ָ : ָ, ֲֻ֟ ... (־֮֬) ...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Let him finish. ̴֕ , ߕ ֯ ֮ ֟ ֟ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... I have already clarified. Now, there is no issue and nothing else is going on record. Please, conclude....(Interruptions). Please, conclude.

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ֛ ֣ ... (־֮֬) ... ӡ ִֵ ֲԤ ... (־֮֬) ... ִֵ ״ֻ ... (־֮֬) ... ֋, ֟ ֮և ... (־֮֬) ...

ֵָ : *

ֵ֮ ֻ ָ : *

׾ֵ֕ ָ : *

.. ׻ֵ : *

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please, conclude...(Interruptions). Let him conclude. ֯ ֮ ֮ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... Let him finish. ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... , ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... ״֮֙, ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... Just one minute...(Interruptions). Let me handle. ֕ʹ , ֕ ̸ ֟ ׸ױ֮ ו֋, ִ ٻִֵ ֻꅠ Please clarify this. ... (־֮֬) ... ״֮֙, ֮ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... , ֮ פ ... (־֮֬) ... ֟ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ֮ ֟ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ... You can't do that, Mr. Pany. Please, go back to your seat. ֯ ֮ ߙ ָ և ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ֮ ߙ

________________________________

* Not recorded

ָ և ... (־֮֬) ... ׸ױ֮ ... (־֮֬) ... ֯ ֮ ߙ ָ և ... (־֮֬) ... Let him finish. I cannot hear everyone in this din. פ comparison ... (־֮֬) ... ֛ ... (־֮֬) ... , ״֮֙ ... (־֮֬) ... ֛ ... (־֮֬) ... ֟ ד֟ , ֛ ֋ and the matter is over. Please take your seats. ... (־֮֬) ... ׻ֵ , ֛ , ד֟ , ֛ ֋ ... (־֮֬) ...

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ׸ױ֮ ... (־֮֬) ...

ϟ֯ : *

.. ׻ֵ : *

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, I have a point of order.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Tell your people to let you speak. Tell them to go back. Let them go back...(Interruptions). He has a point of order. Let him finish.

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, I have a point of order. Exactly the similar statement was made in the last session by the hon. Member, Shri Janeshwar Mishra, who is not present in the House today. The same objection was taken by us and the objection precisely was that one is a banned organisation which has been banned and the ban has been upheld by the Tribunal. The Central Government, even today, continues to ban it.

(continued by 2z)

________________________________

* Not recorded

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