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PSV-NBR/2M/4.00

ק (֟) : ָ ֛ ָ֤߮ ִ֮ , ߸ ֟פ ִ֣Ԯ ו ֯ ִ֮ , ו ֯ ֤ , ֮ ֣ פ ׻֋ ...(ִֵ ә)... ֛ ִֻ

ָ, ָ ֵә ֮ ֟ ֟ ״׮Ù ֮֮ Do we have a carefully worked out short, medium and long-term strategy to deal with these threats politically, ideologically, economically, socially and systematically? Do we have a national security apparatus capable of implementing the strategy effectively? And, do we have a political leadership at the Central level and at the State level which would consistently bat or reinvigorate the national security apparatus? ָ, ֲ national security apparatus across the political spectrum, political backing ״ֻ, effectively ִ ֋օ

ָ ֟ counter insurgency and counter terrorism doctrine ֮֮ 1956 ׸ʹ ִ֮ , ָ ִ֮ , ֮ ӕֲ ִ֮ , ִ֮ , ָ ׌ֵָ ׌ , ָ ָ ׌ , ָ counter insurgency and counter terrorism doctrine ָ ׌ ִ֮ , ٻִֵ ָ comprehensive law and order ־ֻ different groups, ֮ ֻ ֌ terrorism ׾׌ ֮ , ׿ָ ֮ , ׾׌ ֤ terrorists ֮ ֻ ֮ ׿ֿ , cannon fodder ֮ , ףֵָ ֮ , ֮ , ֈә ׻֋ socio-economic strategy ? alienated , alienation strategy ? ָ, ָ alienation , ָ minorities alienation , ָ ֟ ־֕ ֣ ß֮ , ֤֟ ֮ ֲִֵ ׻֋ ֤֟ וִָ , ָ ָ וִָ ֯ - ֮־֤ (ִ֯)

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (WEST BENGAL): Thank you Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir. Actually, the book that has been circulated by the Home Ministry dealt with -- in figures -- how security incidents, naxal violence, communal violence, have gone up in some of the States and how incidents have come down in some of the States. Abhishekji dealt elaborately with the figures. But, we have heard how extremist incidents have gone up. The number of communal incidents in 2002 was 722 and in 2005, the number increased to 779. The number of persons killed came down in 2005. In 2002, 1,130 were killed when compared to 124 in 2005. This includes the incidents of Godhra. We all know how peaceful the place of Gandhiji and Meerabai was and what is the situation of these places today. The situation of Nepal has improved a lot. It will definitely help us in the sub-continent so far as extremist incidents are concerned and we hope for the better.

Sir, our country has witnessed some of the serious incidents of terrorist violence. The recent blasts at Malegaon, which led to the death of 37 people and injured more than 100 people, were a very calculated attack. (CONTD. BY USY "2N")

NBR-USY/KLG/2N/4.05

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (CONTD.): ....to create communal tension and, thus, to weaken the unity of the country. Who was behind the attack? This attack had been perpetrated by the enemies of the country with a design to disrupt normal life and create social tension. And, that is the biggest danger before us. It was perpetrated by the enemies of the country. But, how the people of Malegaon displayed the best maturity and refused to be trapped in the trap set up by the terrorists, is a very important question. And, how the answer was given to the terrorists? The Hindus donated blood for the Muslims. The Muslims came forward to donate blood for the Hindus in the Mumbai train blast case. We have seen how the Muslims, in Malegaon, had formed a human chain and shown determination to save the hundreds of Hindu school girls, who were struck in schools. They were safely evacuated. Food, drinking water, medicines, blankets, etc. were provided immediately before any Government assistance reached there. This is another picture of brotherhood, the best answer to the terrorism. India should uphold the right of all the religious, linguistic, cultural and ethnic minorities to build up a plural society. Here, I would like to quote a few lines of Dr. Rabindra Nath Tagore. In reply to a civic reception accorded by Dr. B.C. Roy, the then Mayor, he said, "Let not the poison of internecine strife pollute her life. Let the citizens of all races and all sects and communities unite in goodwill and keep her name untarnished and her peace undisturbed. This is my prayer." How to fulfil the prayer of Dr. Rabindra Nath Tagore? What is the pre-condition of internal security? Can it be achieved by destroying mosques, destroying temples, creating communal disharmony and tension, and targeting one religion only? Only a few months before the Mumbai blasts, a large amount of RDX was recovered by police at the same place of Maharashtra. Two Bajarang Dal activitists were killed while making bombs. Blasts in mosques in Parbani, Purna, Jalnia, in recent years, must also be seriously investigated. How is the Government reacting and taking action?

Sir, we know that terrorism knows no religion. The States, together with the Central Government, should ensure a coordinated action. This should be seen with utmost seriousness. The Government must take all necessary measures to strengthen internal security of the country and should identify intelligence and security lapses. Proper inquiry and punishment to the guilty should be ensured. All important places should be guarded and protected suitably.

One point has been raised here. Some say that this is taking place due to the appeasement of the minority. During the NDA rule, Parliament, the Akshardham Temple, the Red Fort, the Raghunath temple, etc. had been attacked by the terrorists. Are you to claim that that had taken place due to the appeasement of the minority by the NDA? Such attacks took place when the POTA was also there. We must remember that the danger to internal security cannot be fought destabilising the secular democratic character of the country.

Sir, I would like to refer to one speech of Shri Kalyan Singh. In Calcutta, in an open street, after demolishing the Babri Masjid, he said, "ָ ִ ә פ ֟, ֮ " Such was his public speech in Calcutta. We know that minority fundamentalism and majority communalism continuously feed each other.

(Contd. by 2o VP)

VP/4.10/2O

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (CONTD.): And, in Gujarat, POTA was introduced. What did the POTA Review Committee say? It said that the arrests were not justified. The POTA Review Committee gave an ambiguous decision that more than 90 odd per cent of these people, who have been arrested under POTA in Gujarat, would have been tried under the existing law, and in no way can they be treated as conspiring in a terrorist conspiracy against the State. Such was the statement. This was the unequivocal, ambiguous decision of the POTA Review Committee.

Sir, what is civilization if the majority community cannot protect the lives of the minorities? Sir, we are discussing the internal security situation. Recently, a Computer Analyst was arrested. And the Head of the National Security Coordination Cell has revealed how a spy ring, linked to a U.S. Diplomat, was operating. In 2004, a senior Law Officer, working as an Agent of the CIA was able to finally take shelter in that country. The strategic partnership should not be allowed to work as strategic spying. Since the BJP-led Government began security and intelligence cooperation, the doors were opened to the U.S. The Indo-U.S. security collaboration should be reviewed. The UPA Government should take immediate steps to prevent security breaches, and the exact nature of the Indo-U.S. collaboration should be known to the Parliamentarians. The BJP opened the door. We want to know from the Home Minister whether the UPA will keep the door open or not.

Now, Sir, the Afzal's death sentence has been deferred. It was a serious incident. Our Jawans sacrificed their lives to protect this building, and this institution; a great democracy. Now, Sir, the Supreme Court has given a judgement, and the mercy petition has been submitted before the President. We all know this, and it has been referred to by some of us here, that 22 mercy petitions are pending. The oldest case is that of 1997. Even the Rajiv Gandhi's murder case is pending. The Tamil Nadu Government, as we came to know, sent a petition on 4th May 2000 to the Government. It was kept pending there. Only in 2005 the Home Ministry sent it to the President. Since the last 4-5 years, it has been pending. Submitting such petitions to the President is the law of the land. It is a judicial provision. The BJP has not objected to any of the petitions; none has been touched. We know, Sir. Then, why is there this particular case? It is in order to communalise the situation. And, they want to take advantage of the U.P. elections. Our position is that the law of the land should prevail. With these few words, I want to conclude. There is another speaker from my party; he will speak. I conclude my speech. Thank you, Sir. (ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shri Mangani Lal Mandal. Shri C. Ramachandraiah. You might be aware of the time allotted to your party. You should speak within that time. ...(Interruptions)... You know the time. ...(Interruptions)...I am just reminding you. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH (ANDHRA PRADESH): Sir, this issue has been discussed umpteen times. It is being discussed continuously because of the deterioration in the internal security situation of this country. The Home Minister has submitted a book containing the details. It is a very beautiful book, but the real situation is ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: I hope you have read it. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: But the real situation is not that beautiful when we see the book. Sir, irrespective of the party in power...(Interruptions)... Yes; yes, so that we should not have time to go through that. Irrespective of the party in power, the situation has not improved. (Continued by PK/2P)

PK/2P/4.15

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH (CONTD.): I am not blaming a particular Government. It may be naxalism, insurgency in North-East, or, more terrorist activities because of cross-border terrorism. So, it is rather frightening to hear that more than one-third of the country is afflicted with internal disturbance. This is a report that I read in a newspaper...(Interruptions).. Sir, I cannot quote, but I had read in a newspaper.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: You please rely upon it. I am sending it and giving it to you.

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: I am unable to authenticate, but what I am saying is subject to correction also. But I read that it was the Home Ministry Report, and 165 districts and 14 States are afflicted with Maoist activities.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: It is not correct.

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: I wish it should not be true.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: I have given you in writing which is authenticated. You shall have to rely upon it. I am making a statement on the floor of the House that if it is wrong, I am subject to the direction of the House and the Presiding Officer. You are relying upon something which....(Interruptions)...

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Sir, I will, definitely, rely upon you...(Interruptions).. Sir this was circulated only today...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: You sign it and give it; we will rely upon you...(Interruptions)...

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Sir, you being the Minister, you will have access to the information; whereas, we don't have that facility. So, we have to reply upon the information whatever appears in the newspapers. I am handicapped.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: May I say that whatever appears in the newspapers cannot be brought to the House unless and until you go into it and authenticate that what has appeared in the newspaper is correct. This is the rule.

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Sir, should I ask the editor of a newspaper to authenticate it first, so that I can present it here?

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Not the editor, you have to do it.

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: But, you can, at least, accept that you have pressed the panic button.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: This is not correct.

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: No, at least, you can accept that you have pressed the panic button of the internal situation in the country.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Not at all.

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: And, you said, Sir, that vital installations were going to be the targets.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: No; again, I am going to say that I have not made that statement. That statement is incorrect, and I don't know how it appeared in the newspapers...(Interruptions)..

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Sir, for everything, contradiction is coming...(Interruptions)..

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: No, no; what can I do?..(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ramachandraiah, when the Home Minister is saying categorically, you should accept....(Interruptions)...

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: No, no, Sir, I am accepting his statement. But we have our limitations. That is what I am saying. How do I get the information? Should I sit on the chair of Home Secretary and take the files?...(Interruptions)..I read in the newspapers that nuclear installations were going to be targeted, vital installations were going to be targeted. If it is a contradictory news, how can I know? Should I sit on the chair of Home Secretary and summon the files, so that I can get the authentic information? That is the only source of information I am getting. And, in spite of the Right to Information Act, I am unable to get information from the concerned Departments ...(Interruptions).. This has created jitters. Honestly, Sir, this has created jitters. But what exactly are the plans of the Government to avert it? Because in spite of so many refusals, every day, a number of incidents are happening. I am not blaming a particular Government, or, a particular Minister. This is happening. What is true is happening. Why didn't it happen in the US, after that incident? Why didn't it happen in the US? Why is it continuously happening in India? What are the reasons? Have ever the Government inquired about it, made a research about it? What exactly are the reasons that are contributing to this? And, Sir, I will, again, have to go to the newspapers, because that is the only source of information I have got. On the floor of the House, hon. Minister, Shri Pranab Mukherjee, said that ISI's involvement is there in terrorist activities in this country. In the recent blast in Maharashtra, the Police Chief has admitted that ISI involvement is there...(Interruptions)... But the Security Adviser, Shri Narayan, says, that there is no clinching information. What is this ambiguity? (Contd. by 2Q/.PB)

PB/2Q/4.20

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH (CONTD.): Whom do we believe? Where is the clarity? The Indians are totally in darkness, as far as the terrorist activities, terrorism and internal security situation is concerned. And, we do not know whom we should believe or whom we should not believe. The Ministry of Home Affairs says one thing, and the Security Adviser says another thing. The IB Chief advises one thing, and immediately the hon. Prime Minister will refute that thing. It was said, "The existing laws are not sufficient to deal with the special crimes." That was the sum and substance of Mr. Narshiman's opinion. So, he wants special laws. More stringent provisions have to be incorporated. But immediately the Prime Minister said that there is no necessity of it. Why? Now, if the existing laws are so stringent, so punitive, why the crime rate has not been reduced, why the situation has not been improved? Who are responsible for this? It is not a question of present Government or past Government. I am not blaming a particular Government. Who is responsible for it? And what is the role of the Government in containing these terrorist activities in this country? We have been continuously blaming one community or the other. Where is the end of it? Have you ever enquired why the people of a particular community are going and being trained in other countries and coming back and going to the extent of damaging their own nation? There is a reason for it. There is a reason for everything. We have to enquire it, as the U.K. has done it. The U.K. has done it, and they have succeeded in it. So, let us go through it. Make a research as to what exactly are the reasons for it. Let us address those problems. Every speaker has very eloquently presented his case, and everybody is saying that vote-bank politics should not be there. I have heard this phrase a number of times in this House. But even today majority of the parties are going for vote-bank politics. They are going for vote-bank politics. To what extent they are sincere to their words which they have been saying here? And one party's political spectrum is so divided and so self-serving that it wants to take advantage of every situation. One party takes advantage of majority community, another party takes advantage of the minority community. In fact, nobody is championing the cause of any community. They are championing their own causes. That is a very hard fact, Sir. It is a naked truth. Unfortunately or fortunately, our internal situation is identified with the foreign policy of the country. To what extent this country has been successful in being friendly with the neighbouring countries? What is the Gujral Doctrine? Except Bhutan, with whom we are good friends; we are just friends. Take China; also Sri Lanka, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. Why have you been failing in being friendly with the neighbouring countries? What is the advantage of being inimical to those countries? No real thinking, pondering, is being done in the Government. Dr. Abdullah is here. In Kashmir, they have been demanding autonomy, and the party in power for so many years wants to behave like a policeman or as a Mughal emperor. They never thought that autonomy should be given to Kashmir. So, it is my firm conviction that that has led to the thinking of separatism and extremism. So, let us be very realistic in addressing these problems. Let us be very realistic. You have been trying to create some satellites in the country, which you can control from Delhi, totally disregarding the local aspirations. That was the reason why so many regional parties have cropped up in this country. Have you ever thought of it? I am a product of a regional party. The regional parties are cropping up because people are aspiring for it; the people are demanding it. It is because the national parties have failed to deliver the goods. Sir, these are the problems the country is facing, and about which the party in power has to think.

Sir, take the case of Sri Lanka. Once I read in newspapers that Indira Gandhi said that it was our strategic region. But what happened to it? It all happened because of our irrational foreign policy towards Sri Lanka. Because Pakistan is supplying arms to Sri Lanka, we are also supplying radars to Sri Lanka. (Contd. by 2r-SKC)

2r/4.25/skc

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH (CONTD.): Their officers are being trained on our side. Why, Sir? Is it to kill the Tamilians there? What is the Foreign Policy that you are adopting? There is no rational thinking or rational policy. And you make claims that it is in the interests of the nation! It is not at all so. You can achieve eight per cent growth rate, but it can never be an inclusive growth as long as this internal problem exists; it can never be inclusive. And, we have been totally depending on the US.

Who is responsible for the rise of Taliban, Sir? Who had strengthened Saddam Hussein in the earlier stages to contain Islamic leaders in Iran? It was the US. They have been trying to fulfil their own designs, to subserve their own interests. We, being prudent rulers of this country, should have our own national interest in our minds. You can't place all the eggs in the US basket. If the US is really sincere to us, if it is really a friend of India, let it control Pakistan so that the ISI does not fund terrorist activities in this country. Can we do it? Can we use any control on the United States so that it does not finance, does not arm, Pakistan, which in turn is financing ISI, and which in turn finances terrorist activities in our country?

I think the US concept of terrorism is confined to their own country, not to India. Containing terrorism cannot be area specific. These are all hard facts that need to be taken into consideration.

Sir, irrespective of the so many economic losses of this country, even today we are unable to control the flow of funds to terrorist organisations in this country. Hawala functions even more efficiently than the established banks. Hawala system in this country is functioning even in the remotest parts of the country and the credibility of the Hawala system is so perfect that a bank may refuse to honour its cheques but Hawala will not. That is the network we have developed. What has the Government been doing? Have we ever tried to demolish this system? Money-laundering is there and country-to-country financing is there. Country-to-terrorist financing is there. Transfer of funds from one terrorist organisation to the other is there. There are umpteen number of ways and methods through which funds are being flown. This channel has to be demolished. Unless this is demolished, it is very difficult to control.

Then, Sir, of course, it is a State subject. State Governments don't have that type of machinery, that type of resources, to control this type of terrorism in the country. The country requires federal laws. There are umpteen number of reports. Even the Vohra Committee Report -- I read part of that report... (Time-bell) Sir, I shall take a few minutes more.

Federal laws need to be there. It is very unfortunate that the hon. Prime Minister has refused to accept the recommendations made by Narasimhan, with all his experience. I think Narasimhan is one of the finest officers of this country who, with all his experience, has made these suggestions. When existing laws are insufficient to combat this menace, what is wrong with having a special law? You have diluted POTA. I have no objections to that as long as you control terrorist organisations. You have diluted so many laws. It has been proven time and again that the existing laws have been inadequate. Parliament is quite willing to confer the powers on you to contain this menace. We shall support you. Please come forward with a Bill. (interruptions)

Then Sir, this is with regard to the disposal of cases. It is very unfortunate that these Bombay blasts took place in 1993. But, till date the entire judgement is yet to be delivered. It is 14 years now. Why not have fast track courts or court martials? Why should not we have them? Let us have a consensus... (interruptions) Does it take 14 years to deliver the judgement? What type of sincerity are you showing in containing terrorism? Whatever deficiencies exist in containing it, we should remove those and confer more powers with the Government so that they can effectively eradicate this menace. (Contd. by 2s/hk)

HK/2s/4.30

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH (CONTD.): Now, you have come out with a new mechanism, that is, India-Pakistan Anti-terrorism Institutional Mechanism. I don't know the modalities of the mechanism but I am an optimist by conviction and pessimist by experience. I don't know to what extent this will be effectively dealt with. It is like asking Dawood Ibrahim to enquire about the Bombay blast. Sir, Pakistan is the source of terrorism. It is harbouring and selling terrorism and the foreign policy of Pakistan is depending on terrorism. When such is the case, I am rather sceptical, as most of the Indians should be, that this mechanism will work and deliver the goods. But having tried so many methods, let us try this one also. If it is at all confidential, you need not tell about it, but our request is that you fully equip the Government to deal with the situation. It is not as simple as it appears to be. It is a highly explosive situation. Even the mosques and temples are not safe in this country; irrigation projects are not safe and this has been extended to south India now. Recently, Andhra Pradesh Government unearthed 500 rockets. This is the situation. We cannot be complacent. If you need more laws and more powers, introduce the bills. We can request all the parties to arrive at consensus to confer you more powers. But you have to safeguard our borders. I think 5000 km. coast is there in India, which is not at all safe. Anybody can enter the Bay of Bengal coast. I have read in the newspaper that you are going to spend Rs.400 crores on the creation of coast guard police.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: We are giving it to the State Government.

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Coast guards are there and their area of jurisdiction is 200 nautical miles or so, and civil police is also there. I don't think that there is necessity to create coast guard police also. Kindly think it over. Creation of more organisations is not going to serve the purpose. Strengthening of the existing organisations will serve the purpose. Sir, lastly, we have been blaming a particular community. Let us think it over. Why are these things happening? Do some research; there is no use of blaming anybody. Try to introduce some reforms. Try to find out the deficiencies that a particular community is facing and solve them so that they will be totally integrated in the mainstream of life. Thank you. (Ends)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (MAHARASHTRA): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am thankful to you for giving me this opportunity to speak on this very important debate. The threat to internal security is one of the major problems being faced by the country since Independence.

(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI) in the Chair.)

Therefore, this is not the first time that the House is debating on this important issue. This issue was discussed, to a certain extent, in the last Session also and this debate is important only because here the accused people are terrorists who always try to kill the innocent people.

(Contd. by 2t/KSK)

KSK/4.35/2T

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD): And, this debate might go on for hours together. The question before me is whether this debate is going to be useful or is going to be a usual debate without results. I, for one, personally feel that the facts are known to everybody. Remedies are to be suggested, and as one of the earlier speakers has mentioned here, we must be all united and honest in our approach to find out a solution to the problem. Sir, the present situation, as we find it, and while initiating the debate, as Mr. Arun Jaitley has rightly said that Jammu and Kashmir, North-East areas and from the point of view of naxalite problem, many parts of the country are the places where internal security is a serious problem. The Pakistan-sponsored terrorism has claimed the lives of 29,151 people. These were the civilians whose lives were claimed. About 5,101 security personnel also lost their lives. This has caused 4,730 explosions and rendered about 2,78,601 people homeless. I am mentioning these figures only because we must understand the seriousness of the problem. Sir, the loss to private and public properties is about Rs.3,000 crores. So, it seems that throughout the country, so far, the Governments have to deal with -- whether the local Governments or the Central Government -- three problems which were always mentioned. One was the problem of drinking water; the other was the problem of food; and, third problem was the education. Some more problems were also there like health, etc. Now, I think the country may have to add one more problem, that is, safety of life. In this House, we may say anything, but it is true that particularly in metros, the people are scared that their lives will be in danger at any point of time. I am not talking about the remote areas, but the places which are active and where people are always worried whether they would see tomorrow or not. It is only because of the incidents that have taken place so far, particularly in places like Mumbai and Delhi, that people are not safe. Therefore, in addition to essential matters which I mentioned earlier, safety and security has also become a very serious problem which the country is facing today. I remember, the hon. Prime Minister once said that the use of Fidayeen/suicide bombers for targeting our religious places, and vital installations including economic and nuclear establishments and Army camps was very much on the agenda of terrorist outfits. I am not going into whether it has appeared in the newspaper or not, but this is my information that the Prime Minister also expressed a possibility of attacks on vital installations. Therefore, Sir, this cannot be forgotten that immediate actions are necessary. Immediate care has to be taken and I also know how serious, how difficult it is to control these terrorist attacks for various reasons. (continued by 2u)

GSP-ASC/4.40/2U

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.): One of the actions, which we have taken in Jammu and Kashmir, is that we have banned several organisations like Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Hizbul Muzahideen (they have changed the name), Harkat-ul-Muzahideen and several organisations have been banned.

But is the Government seriously considering that after banning these organisations also, the activities of terrorists have not stopped. In order to stop such activities, in order to see that the Jammu and Kashmir issues do not become serious, the autonomy was available to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. Sir, this autonomy was given to them right from the beginning. The have a different set of Constitution, and, in article 370 of our Constitution, there are provisions that gave autonomy to Jammu and Kashmir. It was for a certain period that this autonomy was expected to remain but we are aware that this could not happen and with this autonomy also, the expected results could not be achieved. Still, the infiltration is going on, the sufferings of the people are increasing. In some parts of Jammu and Kashmir, people are leaving their places and trying to find out a place for them elsewhere in India. The problems of naxalites are mainly in Andhra Pradesh, Bihar, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and also in some parts of Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal. These are the areas which are affected by naxalites.

Sir, according to my information, one-third of the country is affected by some kind of internal disturbance. The question is whether we have been able to stop this, whether after this debate, something will come out. Sir, it is said that 165 Districts in 14 States are affected by Maoists activities. Sir, I do not want to go into the figures. The question before us very simple. Before this, I would like to refer to a question which our hon. Member, Shri Arun Shourie asked through Indian Express on 1st August, 2006. He asked four questions, which give a reply in themselves. The four questions, which were asked by him are:

a        Do the people of the area look to the police for protection from the Naxalites, or are they now conducting themselves in such a way that the Naxalites would spare them?

b       Have the contractors of the area to pay Naxalites a cut for the works they execute - say, on construction involved in 'development projects'?

c        Who is dispensing 'justice' in the area? The regular courts, or the Naxalites' mobile courts?

d       Are the government officials themselves not paying protection money to the Naxalites?

Sir, this situation is absolutely an honest picture as to what is happening in naxalite areas. And, therefore, if the police are made to pay the protection money, then what else remains. (Contd. by 2w-sk)

SK/2w/4.45

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.): And, how those police, who are hand in hand with the Naxalites, would be able to cure the menace of Naxalites in the State. Therefore, if this is to be stopped, right governance is required. According to me, the Naxalites are spreading all over the country only because, in Arunji's words, the third class Government cannot give a first class response to terrorism. He says this because the Government has to be alert, the Government has to be determined and the Government has to take prompt and immediate action. Then only, the problem of Naxalite can be solved. Sir, there are two schools of thoughts. One school of thought comes from Lage Rahey Munna Bhai. I think, most of the hon. Members must have seen this picture. Therefore, they have always a sympathetic attitude towards the criminals and they feel, this school of thought feels that we should not punish the culprits; we should try to be sympathetic with them as much as possible. And, another school of thought is of those who have got a firm opinion that the exemplary punishment to the terrorist is the only way out. The general public in the country is supporting the second school of thought. Sir, let me tell the Government in the House that the delay in hanging of Mohammad Afzal Guru has also upset the minds of the people of our country. I am sure that the country feels that Afzal should be hanged at once. It is not that the procedure should not be followed. But, at the same time, my question to the hon. Minister is: Why is the Government not expressing its opinion on the issue? When there is a lot of debate in the newspapers, when there is a lot of discussion, at least, I have not been able to read from the Government's official statement that he should not be pardoned and the President should not take the issue lightly. People wanted that the Government should strictly stand up and say that Afzal Guru should not be pardoned under any circumstances. But, Sir, the Government has not expressed its opinion at all. This Government, or, for that purpose, any Government, or, any popular Government has to express its stand on the issue. And, this Government is not prepared to do it. Today, I would like to hear from the Hon. Minister what is the stand of the Government.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: The stand of the Government has to be Constitutionally correct.

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: I could not follow exactly what the Hon. Minister has said.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: What is required by law would be done.

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, it is not necessary that the Government has to express its opinion on the issue. When there are reactions from the people, the Government can always say that this is the view of the Government.

SHRI SHIVRAJ VISHWANATH PATIL: Under the Constitution the matter has to be decided by one authority. Any other authority should not take the responsibility of doing that.

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: I still personally feel that the Government cannot wait on such issues if the Government wants to avoid certain things. The communal tension unnecessarily increase because of this approach. And, some people have also thought that it is nothing but the appeasement of a particular community, for which the Government does not want to make its opinion clear on the issue. And, I personally feel that on such issues, the Government has to express its opinion even when the issue is raised in the House. The Government's desire on the issue has to come before the people. Sir, not only this, it was so simple that nothing should have been said on this. People should have said only that 'wait, let us see what His Excellency, the President, does in the matter'. (Contd. by ysr-2x)

-SK/YSR/4.50/2X

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.): Lots of people expressed their opinion, including the political leaders. The Kashmir Bar Association and Hurriyat Conference have said that this is a part of conspiracy against the people of Kashmir. I fail to understand how it is a conspiracy. The courts -- the High Court and the Supreme Court -- decided that he should be sentenced to death. How is it connected with Kashmir? Why people are connecting this issue with Kashmir? The Government comes into picture because of the reactions made by different people. The United Jehad Council has threatened India of dire consequences. They said it would be against the human rights. They can say it with respect to human rights authority. But they said India would have to face serious consequences if he is put to death. Number of people expressed their opinion. Some opinions are 'for' and some 'against.' For instance, Mr. Advani, the BJP Leader, has said that he should be hanged at once. Yes, it is not the only one. Dr. Farooq Abdullah, who is in the House now, is a good friend of mine. He also said that the nation would go up in flames and terrorist would destroy communal harmony. The nation will go up in flames! I don't understand this. Are we so much scared, or are we so weak? Is the country so weak that the country will go up in flames because of the hanging of one terrorist? He has also suggested that the judges, who gave this verdict, should be given protection. He is here. He can explain whether he has said it, or he has not said it, or why he has said it. But it is also said that he asked for the protection of the judges. I am sure the Government must have taken proper care or might have neglected also. He has warned the Government. He has also thought that there is a danger to the judges also. At the same time, I find that there are a number of people who don't want an action against Mr. Afzal. I personally feel that this is a very sad situation in the country where we are asking for pardon for such type of culprit for no reason. When Parliament was attacked, I was here, and you will be surprised to know Mr. Vice-Chairman that one of the bullets came towards my chamber. It was my good fortune that I was saved and the man behind this attack was Mr. Afzal. Unfortunately, for him such request is being made by the people. At the same time, there were brave jawans of our Parliament who saved Parliament. The CRPF jawan, Kamlesh Kumari,..(Interruptions)

SHRI R.K. DHAWAN: Will you yield for a minute?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Are you yielding?

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Yes.

SHRI R.K. DHAWAN: You have been Chief Minister and I am mystified by your contention that nobody should say that he should be excused or he should be hanged. Normally, I do not interrupt a Member, but I was mystified by your statement. It is the legal right of the person, who is convicted, to apply for a mercy. When a mercy appeal is filed, it has to be examined and on whatever decision the Government reaches, it has to be conveyed to the competent authority, that is, the President of India. So, when you say that the mercy petition should not be examined, I would like to remind you that when Mr. Bhutto was being hanged, the Congress Party and other parties also appealed to the world the he should not be hanged. So, you cannot say that nobody has a right to say that he should be excused and he should not be hanged and all that. It will be ultimately the decision of the Government. How do you expect the Government to express the decision before the decision has been taken and before it has gone to the competent authority? I am amazed by it. You have been Chief Minister, there must have been cases, and such words coming from you have really mystified me. Thank you. (Followed by VKK/2Y)

-YSR/VKK-HMS/2y/4.55

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, unfortunately, the hon. Member has not understood me properly. I said, the Government should have expressed its opinion only because there were a number of opinions expressed by other people. (Interruptions)

SHRI R.K. DHAWAN: That doesn't matter. You cannot deny the right to a convict.

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: The Government also is responsible. The Government is a popular Government; they have to express the opinion. People have a doubt in their minds that the Government does not want him to be hanged. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: *

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Mr. Narayanasamy, please, let him continue. (Interruptions) He is not yielding. Please, let him continue. Nothing else is going on record. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: If somebody comes and threatens the Government that there will be dire consequences and it keeps quiet, that is objectionable.

֕߾ : *

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Nothing else will go on record except Mr. Joshi's speech. (Interruptions) Please carry on. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: *

-------------------------

* Not recorded.

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, people feel that this Government does not want to hang him. They want to find a way out; they want to threaten the Government; they want to threaten everybody; and the Government prepares to be silent on this issue, it's for them. Sir, the Congress Party also did not express its opinion. I don't know what is the reason. (Interruptions) What is the opinion of the Congress Party, would you be able to tell me Mr. Narayanasamy? Give me the opinion. Just now, give me the opinion. (Interruptions) What is the opinion of the Congress Party?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Manohar Joshiji, whenever they will get a chance, they will react. You kindly address the Chair. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Mr. Narayanasamy, you can stand up and tell me just now. (Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please, Mr. Narayanasamy, you will have a chance to speak. You can clarify if you want to, at that point of time. (Interruptions) Please carry on. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the family of Kamlesh Kumari who was martyred in the Parliament attack has threatened to return the Ashoka Chakra awarded to her family. If really something happens and if they returned the Ashok Chakra, I am sure, that will be a shame on our part. The families of five Delhi Policemen who died in the Parliament attack said, they would return the Kirti Chakra if any concession is given to Afzal. These are the people who saved our lives; these are the people who saved this supreme body of the country. It is really surprising that some people come and say that don't punish them, don't take action against them. And, therefore, it is out of mere frustration, I say, that this is the country where such type of people can stand and speak. (Interruptions)

֕߾ : ָ, important ֟ ...(־֮֬)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: No, I am not yielding. I am not yielding to you.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): He is not yielding. (Interruptions)

׾ֵ֕ ָ : ֯ ִֵ ֋ ֲ ׻֋ (Interruptions)

֮ : ֯ ״ֻ, ִֵ ׻֋օ Sir, these disturbances in different parts of the country are also because of the policies of the Government. The Government policies upset the people and sometimes such things occur because the Government does not expressly say anything on issues on which the Government is required to speak. Sir, how can this situation be improved? Firstly, the police has to be effective and it has to be given authority to deal with the domestic terrorism. In the recent Mumbai blast, the Prime Minister himself had informed the State. He had informed the hon. Chief Minister and the police that such things might happen and this is very unfortunate that even though the information was received in advance, the Police Department did not act. The hon. Prime Minister came to Mumbai and he himself made a statement that he had expressed this fear, but nothing was done. (Contd. by MKS/2z)

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