(MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair)
SHAHID SIDDIQUI: That has no relevance.
(Interruptions) What I had told was, today it may be in the interest of
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Thank you for enlightening me. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. We do not have time for all these things. Please sit down, Mr. Shahid. (Interruptions) Let us not go into all these, please. (Interruptions) Mr. Ram Jethmalani, please conclude. You said you are taking RJD's time. Your time was just two minutes and the time of RJD's was five minutes. Totally, it was only seven minutes.
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, five more minutes. (Interruptions) Kindly see this.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude, we have time constraint.
RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, this is the
reference in this Act and kindly see this. This is in the Expectation Clause of
the American Congress. This is clause (d) on page 3 of this Act which says,
"Such cooperation between America and India will induce the country",
that is, India, "to give greater political and material support to the
achievement of the U.S.' global and regional non-proliferation objectives,
especially with regard to dissuading, isolating and, if necessary, sanctioning
and containing states that sponsor terrorism and terrorist groups that are
seeking to acquire nuclear weapons capability or other weapons of mass
destruction capability and means to deliver such weapons." And, Sir, this
has to be read with 15(g) and 8(iv). It is in this context that so long as
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shahid is not in the Chair. ... (Interruptions)
ÁÖß ¿ÖÖ×Æü¤ü ×ÃÖ×§üÛúß : ÃÖ¸ü..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… †Ö¯Ö ²ÖÖê»Ö “ÖãÛêú Æïü… ˆ®ÖÛúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ¾Öê ¸üÜÖëÝÖê, †Ö¯ÖÛúß ²ÖÖŸÖ †Ö¯Ö®Öê ¸üÜÖß Æîü, †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹…..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..Nothing will go on record. Please sit down. Nothing will go on record. (Interruptions)
ÁÖß †²Öæ †Ö×ÃÖ´Ö †Ö•ÖÌ´Öß : *
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… Please sit down. †Ö¯Ö ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü? †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… Ûãú”û ×¸üÛúÖ›Ôü ´Öë ®ÖÆüà •ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹ †³Öß…
ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : *
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, two-three principles. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude, we have to conclude the debate.
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I thought you gave me five minutes, õut of which I have used only one minute! I have four more.
principle which we must bear in mind, and which is a fundamental principle of
international law, is, treaties cease to be binding
under vital change of circumstances. If, for example, tomorrow,
American Constitutional law,
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD): Now this is something about which my friend Arun Shourie will do research. ...(Interruptions)...
* Not recorded.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No please, because there is no time for all this. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Lastly, Sir, I want to say this that particularly this article of 14th July attacks my Prime Minister and his Government of not trying to do good to the country. But it says that you are interested in raising the revenues of some Indian and American companies, to add to their earnings and their incomes. Sir, this is the most malicious attack that a scientist could mount upon my Government, upon my Prime Minister. At least, he is one person who should not ever be consulted again even if you want to consult all the scientists of the world. This is what self-respect requires. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI SHAHID SIDDIQUI: We should respect our scientists. ...(Interruptions)... Do not add motives to it. ...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Siddiqui, please do not interfere into every thing. ...(Interruptions)... Please do not interrupt in every thing. ...(Interruptions)... He will put his point of view. †Ö¯ÖÛúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ¾Öê ®ÖÆüà ¸üÜÖëÝÖê ®Ö ! Please sit down. ...(Interruptions)...
RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I will take one more minute and I will
finish. ...(Interruptions)... Let me just enumerate in one minute and I
will finish. Let me just enumerate in
one minute the catalogue of advantages. First, I have said that the two democracies
have now come together. Second, our
pitiable record of energy production -- 3 per cent and France 75 per cent
nuclear energy, and look at other counties, that will come to an end.
(Time-bell) Our current weapons
performance and programme is totally free from any external inspection or
obstruction. Fourth, there will be
economic cooperation in other fields between the two countries. Five, the Americans have pledged that they
will go on pressurising
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I request all the speakers to be brief because at 6.20, we have to start the reply. Shri Pasha. Please be brief.
SHRI SYED AZEEZ PASHA (ANDHRA PRADESH): Sir, I am always brief.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am reminding the next speakers.
SYED AZEEZ PASHA: Mr. Deputy Chairman,
Sir, an independent foreign policy is the cornerstone of our nationally
accepted foreign policy. Last time, when
we were discussing the Indo-US nuclear deal, our hon. Prime Minister sat
patiently for seven hours and heard the discussion. While concluding, he gave a
very spirited 70-minute speech. While
speaking, he assured this House and the entire nation that the basic interests
of the nation would not be compromised.
But we are sorry to say that after seeing the developments since then,
are we going to compromise on certain issues?
The Hyde Act, the
SYED AZEEZ PASHA (CONTD.): Because they are the persons who are very closely
associated with the nuclear science.
Thirdly, we are having very huge reserves of thorium and whether we are
going to continue with the research or not, we are still unaware because it is
one of the cheap sources of energy we are having at our disposal. Then, on the Iranian issue, last time while I
was speaking I said that we have to have the other options of energy resources
like hydraulic, gas or solar energy and here we are having a friend who are
ready to supply gas at a very cheaper rate.
But after that, I don't know whether the entire gas pipeline project is
shelved or still we are continuing with or not, we don't know. Then, with regard to the Security Council, we
were very much reluctant and vacillating to support the Membership of Venezuela. Only at the last minute we supported that
country. That country is having a very
huge oil reserve and
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shri Abani Roy.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, last but one, so you must leave some time for the last speaker also.
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ARJUN KUMAR SENGUPTA (
The first point is this. It is not quite relevant for us what the American Legislatures have felt or are motivated and what they are going to do. Mr. Shourie is very worried about them. I am glad that at this stage of his life he has been very critical about the American attitude to the global situation. But, on this particular issue, what is relevant is whether, and this is what we would like to hear from the hon. External Affairs Minister, it prevents the 123 Agreement to be reached by us, because this particular law has been enacted. We want some kind of a clear enunciation of this point. If it does, we shall not agree, which is very clear and that has been mentioned by the hon. Prime Minister.
(CONTD. BY USY "4M")
SENGUPTA (CONTD.): And, if this agreement fails, and if we do not agree with
it, then, both
Sir, my second
point is this. Under the 'separation
programme' eight reactors are for defence.
The country would like to know whether in all these discussions of the
American Senate, anything is there which will prevent us from carrying our
activities in those eight reactors. I do
not see any clauses there. I think, the Minister may like to consider this that we can still
do whatever we are doing in these eight reactors. We can add to those reactors. In fact, we can use all the uranium, we have, in those reactors to produce more
bombs. In fact, Arun
Shourieji has given a number, which is very interesting He talks
about, we all know the number of 78,000 tonnes of local uranium, which we have,
is correct. But he says that it will be
SHRI ARUN SHOURIE: With a very small proportion.
SHRI ARJUN KUMAR SENGUPTA: Well! If we can make 2,000 bombs, then, it is more than enough. More than enough. I do not want any more. I would like the Minister to say that if this is the case, if we can maintain our eight reactors, we can do whatever we have been doing up till now. Then, there is no problem. The country would like to have some kind of assurance on that.
On 'energy security' -- my friend Sitaramji, is not here -- there is a point here that the nuclear power is not going to be the only source of energy. That's true. There are many other sources of energy. Arunji was very right that there are plenty of possibilities of using hydel energy. In fact, yesterday's newspaper says that we have discovered gas fields. There are many other positions on that. But that does not prevent us from looking for other sources of energy, particularly because, and this is the point I would like to stress here, there was a number that was given here, quoting about the cost of electricity. Arun Shourieji is an economist, he would appreciate this thing. The argument is not whether we can make electricity out of that or not, but the argument is whether we can make electricity cost-effective. The arithmetic that we have got, this is not my arithmetic, Shri Gopalakrishnan, whom Shri Ram Jethmalani does not like, but Shri Srinivasan and others have been in these numbers that the cost of Indian uranium is eight times more than the internationally imported uranium. And, there is also another point that if we use that uranium in absolutely the first-ranking technology and equipment -- Rahul Bajajji has left -- then, there are numbers saying that electricity can be generated by the nuclear power. The new nuclear power is imported uranium at a cost almost equal, if not less, to the hydel power. This is a point on which I can go on discussing deliberately. But this has been established. If this is the case, then, the question is whether the security is different. We have many different sources of energy security. But this is one security if we can have without, of course, at the cost of our sovereignty and at the cost of other things, which I am quite sure, the hon. Minister will assure.
(Contd. by 4n -- VP)
SHRI ARJUN KUMAR SENGUPTA (CONTD.): There is no doubt that we will need more energy. And I agree that this is not the only reason and one should not make this the only reason why we should go for that. But, this is the major reason which if we can do, it would be very good for us.
Then, Sir, there are three points on
which the House was very agitated, and I am quite sure, the hon. Minister will
be able to assure us, namely, no right to reprocess the U.S. fuel. I think, Shri Abhishekji correctly pointed out that with
there is the point regarding no transfer of equipment for reprocessing and
enrichment. This is true. The
The third point is regarding stockpiling. Now, this is a point which is, sufficiently, clear from the Prime Minister's statement. But it would be useful if it is, categorically, stated again that, on stockpiling, if we stockpile fuel from other sources, there would be nothing against that. If it has not been agreed to, this is some point on which we may have to do some negotiation.
The final point is about nuke testing. Sir, I would like to submit that I am very much against testing. It is the same reason why we do not want to be a competitive nuclear power. If we have enough resources to have 2000 bombs, this is more than enough. In fact, there is, absolutely, no reason for us to add to the stockpile of this nuclear weapons. We have the ability to do some testing at sub-critical level. That has been allowed. That can be continued. We can do that. But, Sir, what I want to point out to the whole House, again and again, is that even if we do not want to test, whether it is because Shri Vajpayeeji saying that I personally feel we should not do it -- Shri Sitaram Yechuryji would agree with me -- but, we would not like to surrender our sovereignty to test it if we feel it necessary.
My only point, Sir, here is, if certain
extraordinary circumstances arise, like
and this is my last point. I want to put
it because this has been mentioned again and again, but I have no doubt about
it. Some kind of a categorical statement
should be made that issues like
* Pp 635 Onwards will be issued as Supplement.
SHORT DURATION DISCUSSION ON RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN
INDO-US CIVIL NUCLEAR COOPERATION - (CONTD.)
THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, before I start my observations, I would like to inform the House that the Prime Minister had the intention of intervening, but because of his tooth problem, he cannot speak. That is why what he wanted to assure the House, convey to the House, on his behalf, I will do so. But he has taken the trouble, despite physical illness, to spend large part of his time to listen to the debate in the House.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, at the very outset, I would like to express my gratitude to all the Members who have participated in this discussion and made very valuable contributions. I have been associated with this House for so long that I became almost a fixture of this House, from the late 60's till the last Lok Sabha elections. According to my experiences, any Parliamentary debate, and, especially, in this House, and also, today's debate, despite some interruptions, speak of the high tradition of the House. Members, while making their contributions, demonstrated their knowledge, their appreciation of the situation, and their information; I congratulate them. It is not necessary for me or for anybody to agree with every view which is expressed on the floor of the House because divergence and dissension is the essence of democracy which we have followed, which we have cherished. I think this would be the fifth discussion which we have had. Some hon. Members, perhaps, in over-enthusiasm, stated that Parliament is not taken into confidence. It is not correct, because the whole process began with the joint statement of Prime Minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh and President Bush on 18th July, 2005. After that, there have been four occasions -- in July, 2005, February 27, 2006, March 7, 2006, and August 17, 2006, and before the end of the year 2006, on 19th of December, 2006, we are having discussions for the fifth time. If anybody can correct me, I will appreciate him that on any piece of subject, or, title, so much debate and discussions have taken place and in every one of it, Prime Minister himself has participated. It is true. It is the constitutional provision and neither you nor me have the mandate to change the Constitution. If I remember correctly, one election in this country was fought on the basis of a mandate to change the Constitution. That was in 1971 when the executive came into confrontation with the judiciary and one important judicial pronouncement put restrictions on the amending procedures of Parliament in Golaknath's case. Before that, the Lok Sabha was dissolved. In that election, one of the major issues was that the then Prime Minister sought the mandate of the people that "I would like to amend the Constitution for a social legislation, for a social purpose. I do not have the majority. Two-thirds majority is required." And, on that basis, she got a massive mandate. The Twenty-fourth amendment of the Constitution took place for the first time in article 368. The constituent power of the Parliament was institutionalised. (Contd. by 4P/SKC)
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE (CONTD.): Therefore, it cannot be just on the desire of somebody that you amend the Constitution. But short of that, short of having ratification by the Parliament at all important stages, the Executive takes the matter to the Houses and seeks the advice and guidance from the Houses. That has been the practice in the past and this practice is followed even now.
Sir, let me
start by saying that I was listening to the entire debate since 1 o'clock and
sometimes, I thought that I was not in the Upper House of the Indian
Parliament, but in one of the chambers of
I am not going into the details of the US procedures and US
systems. There are Constitutional experts here; they know about it much better
than me. But one clarification was sought, I think by Dr. Bimal
Jalan, and he had raised an issue pertaining to
Section 203 of the
PRANAB MUKHERJEE (CONTD.): Section 103 of the
Act, Section 104 of the Act, sense of the House, formulation of the policies of
the US Administration are being articulated every
year. Dr. Alexander has very clearly
explained the constitutional position and the relation vis-a-vis
the US Administration and the US Congress.
I would not like to go into the details of it. But, surely, Mr. Deputy
Chairman, Sir, I would like to make a general observation. The question comes: Who is to interpret the
PRANAB MUKHERJEE (CONTD.): "The House can rest assure that in these negotiations,
the commitments and assurances I gave -- I mean the Prime Minister gave -- to the Parliament on August 17, 2006, will
constitute our guidelines. The passage
of the legislation enables the US administration to follow up another
commitment made by the US in July 18 Joint Statement, that is, approaching its
international partners, particularly, in the industry to lift restrictions, to
allow full civil nuclear cooperation with India. We will seek to ensure that the NSG takes
action to permit full civil nuclear cooperation with
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, a number of issues have been raised. I
will try to address some of these issues, because quite a number of other
issues that have been made here are extraneous.
I am not going into the issues which, to my mind, are extraneous to this
debate, like, some American businessmen or some Indian businessmen entered into
an arrangement among themselves and to do business. Keeping that in view, this whole arrangement
is being done. Now, let us come to the
tests and non-proliferation. I have no
hesitation to say, yes, I belong to the party which does not believe in
Non-proliferation Treaty. Yes, we do
believe that nuclear non-proliferation is absolutely necessary for the very
existence of civilisation. Because of this very fact, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir,
from 1974, after the first explosion in Pokharan,
repeatedly we refused to sign the NPT.
Why? When the whole world
signed--Ram Jethmalani has correctly pointed out,
except three or four countries, the whole world signed--we refused. Because
always we considered that NPT is a fraud treaty. It is discriminated. It is creating a class where the nuclear
weapon states would have the right of stockpiling, of making experiments,
horizontally and vertically, while the Non Proliferation Treaty-bound States
will not have that right. So, we refused
to accept this discriminatory treatment.
What was the message which--Mr. Rajiv Gandhi,
the then Prime Minister, and my colleague, Mr. Natwar
Singh, who is present here, was the Minister at that time--we conveyed to the
International Community in the Disarmament Conference of the United
Nations? In plain, simple language it
was that we are on the threshold, we are screwdrivers away from the
manufacturing of weapons. But still, I
would desire to continue to be at the threshold level. I would keep my option open. All along you use the phrase that
PRANAB MUKHERJEE (CONTD.): That was the stand;
good, bad, or indifferent too. Even this
year, we have presented a paper to the United Nations. But I am really, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, at
a loss to understand the logic of the spokesman of the party who indulged in
closing the option, going for the test in the month of May. You came to power in March, 1998. Surely, in two months, you were not competent
enough to start from zero. Everything
was ready. That is why you could take
the advantage of going for explosion in May, 1998. Then what had prompted you to declare a
unilateral moratorium? What had prompted you not
only to declare a unilateral moratorium here but also to reiterate it? Mr. Jaswant Singh wanted to have the documents. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have some
documents. This is the text of the
speech of Mr. Atal Bihari
Vajpayee delivered in the United Nations General Assembly on 24th
September 1998. And there too you did
not say that you would not go for disarmament; you would not go for
non-proliferation. What did you
say? "These tests do not signal a
"Last year, my Prime Minister declared in this
Fine. There is no problem with it. Therefore, the short question, which comes to my mind, is this. Truly, you were talking that you would not have the opportunity of testing. What did we say? What did the Prime Minister say? What is in the Separation Plan? We are not accepting any additional commitment. We are just sticking to the voluntary moratorium which we declared. We are not going to accept any Treaty-bound commitment. We are not going to accept a part of the Treaty which we will sign, because we would like to keep our options open. If situation demands, if the national priority demands, if the superior national interests require, we may have to do that. That will be left to the wisdom of the decision-making authority at that point of time. But we would not like to foreclose the option. We have just exactly retained that commitment which you agreed to, which you did. But we are ensuring that it will not be a Treaty-bound commitment. The Prime Minister stated that it was a hard negotiation. No denial of the fact. The real task to my mind, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, is that the real negotiations will start now, because we shall have to enter into the 123 Agreement. Of course, the 123 Agreement is under the overall Act of 1954. (Contd. by 4T)
PRANAB MUKHERJEE (CONTD.): But, that will be
(MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair)
This is not my comment.
This is the comment in the conference paper that we are not going to
meet this requirement in the foreseeable future. On page 12 of the conference paper, the conferees understand that the
Mr. Chairman, Sir, the question is that, what would be
sequence of the safeguards. The
Government has assured the House that before voluntarily placing our nuclear
facilities under IAEA safeguards, we would ensure that all nuclear restrictions