ֳ : ֳ֯ן , ׮־ ֵ ֮

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ך ֯ ֙

SHRI SHARAD ANANTRAO JOSHI (MAHARASHTRA): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, as you are aware, I have given practically the whole of my life in the service of farmers, who, in the Hindu system, are considered to be shudras, or, at best, OBC. So, nobody can accuse me of prejudice against any of the reservation categories. Sir, even in the Farmers' movement, we had a difference of opinion. Choudhury Charan Singh and Choudhury Devi Lal were strongly in favour of having reservation for the farmers also. Chowdhury Devi Lal, particularly, always asked me, how many IAS officers are there amongst farmers; how many IFS officers are there amongst farmers. And, I said it does not really matter as long as the farmer is able to live in dignity with the sweat of his brow. Sir, I found out an economic programme for the coming up of the farmers, and that was to ensure for them a remunerative price. I think, the kind of reservation programme that has been innovated in early independence days has not only been not useful, but it has actually been counter-productive. Sir, there has been a grievous blunder on the part of the Constitution interpreters. The Directive Principles in the Constitution only talks of sections; it does not talk of caste. And, the article 93 talks, in fact, of class. As all Leftist friends would agree, class is necessarily an economic concept and not a social concept. So, if we are talking of 'class' of citizens who are socially and educationally backward, the concept of economic is already included in it. But, everybody has forgotten that aspect of it, and somehow the reservation has come to stay for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, and, later on, since the days of Mandal, for OBCs also. It is a lucky coincidence that in this morning's Indian Express, V.P. Singh has given an interview saying clearly that while he pioneered the reservation for OBCs, he now regrets because he finds that they have not produced any desirable result, as far as the OBCs are concerned. Sir, Pandit Nehru was opposed to the idea of reservation on the lines of OBCs. Rajiv Gandhi wanted to know how many OBCs are there. And now, even V.P. Singh, don't want to go with it. I think, the time has come for taking a complete review; stopping and taking a complete review as to what results have been produced in the last 60 years. Sir, one particular thing that I have found pernicious in this Bill is, it has a ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI UDAY PRATAP SINGH: It has been implemented hardly for the last ten years, why are you talking of sixty years? ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI SHARAT ANANTRAO JOSHI: That means you are going to continue it for indefinitely. ...(Interruptions).. Then, say that. Say that. ...(Interruptions).. That is not the point. The point is, Sir ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, let us not talk about the inconsistency of V.P. Singh. ...(Interruptions)..

ֳ֯ן : ׻֋ ֯ ׻֋

SHRI SHARAT ANANTRAO JOSHI: This Bill talks of staggered implementation for three years. ...(Interruptions).. Sir, this is a very important point. ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, no in-between talks.

SHRI SHARAT ANANTRAO JOSHI: Sir, this Bill talks of staggered implementation for three years and that starts from the academic year 2007-08. So, it will go into 2008-09 and 2009-10, which crosses the limit that has been fixed by the Parliament that in the year 2010, we are going to have a review of the entire reservation policy. If this Bill had been brought in 1950s, I would have said that there is some good purpose in it. Now, that it is being brought only three years before the deadline that has been set for the programme, and there are a number of issues that are required to be settled, for example, whether it should be applied to the minority community or not, whether it should be applied to the institutions of excellence or not. These are some questions. Similarly, we will have to take into account the counter-productive effect, the divisive effect we are adding in the society. The society is being divided so badly. Somebody referred to the Mumbai incident just now. (Contd. by vk-3o)


SHRI SHARAD ANANTRAO JOSHI (CONTD): The Mumbai police report says -- it is not the NDA Government; it is the UPA Government -- that the Dalits there have joined hands with Naxalites, and, therefore, they have burnt the trains, etc. If that is the trend that the Dalit movement is going to take, I think it is time to make a stop and find out what are the divisive policies that we are following and find out an alternative way which would be more effective in ensuring progress of the Dalits. Sir, unless I find some satisfaction in the Minister's Bill, I have resolved to vote against the Bill and I will ask for a division and vote against the Bill. Thank you.





֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, כ֮ ߴ ߟ֮ ָ ֬և פ־ ו֋

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Indian Cricket Team has won the 1st test match in South Africa. We congratulate the team.

. ִ ӛָ : ֳ֯ן , ִֵ ֤ ִָ֓ , ֮־֤



ֳ֯ן : ߕ ֿ , ׻֋

: ָ, ײֻ ָ ֮

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: How can we do it? There is another Bill after this. (Interruptions). Unless the Members cooperate, how can we do it?

: ֙ , ӲӬ , ׻֋ ֵ

ֳ֯ן : ֲ ӲӬ , ֈ ӲӬ ... (־֮֬)

: 2 ״֮֙ ו֋

֮ ֻ ӛ : ֳ֯ן , ֳ ֤õ ܵ ֤ , ױ ֤ ִֵ פ ֵօ ֈ , ײֻ ֯ ... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן : ֋, last פ ... (־֮֬)

: ָ, ׸֮̾ important bill ֻ 2 ״֮֙ ֟ , ֤ ֲ֕ ... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ך ... (־֮֬) ֮ complete ֿ , ׻֋

SHRI SYED AZEEZ PASHA (ANDHRA PRADESH): Mr.Deputy Chairman, Sir, on behalf of the Communist Party of India, I rise to support the Bill. At the outset, I would like to say that this proposed Bill is neither against the 93rd Constitution Amendment, nor against Article 15(4) or 15(3). It is completely in consonance with it. The Directive Principle of the Constitution is quite clear. It has given guidelines to the State Governments to uplift all the economically downtrodden sections. Anyway, I am not talking about the economically downtrodden sections. I am only restricting myself to higher education. Why can't the State Governments also take steps to bring under their ambit all the Government aided educational institutions in order to provide reservation? Now this Bill restricts the Government to aided institutions only. What we are pleading is that the canvass should be extended to non-aided institutions also so that a broader section can also benefit out of this.

Sir, we feel sorry to say that so many persons who are pleading against this Bill by saying that this economic criterion should be there only to judge the selection of candidates. But I think they are forgetting that it is only meant for admission, not for syllabus or examination. After all, they have to face the same syllabus and the same examination. Those who are not up to the mark, they cannot prosecute it further. This way, there would not be any discrimination. Now we are seeing that in States like Tamil Nadu, where there is already 69 per cent reservation and it is also included in the Ninth Schedule of the Constitution, merit is not a causality there. After all, they are also producing very brilliant students. We should not have narrow approach so to say that this reservation is not going to produce meritorious students. So, it will definitely help very vast section, the lower strata, to enjoy the fruits of Independence which till today they have been deprived. As Communists, we don't believe in casteism, but keeping in view the present objective situation, we feel that for social justice, in a limited way, this is the only solution to see that the fruits are enjoyed by the vast majority. Thank you. (Ends) (Followed by 3P)


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shri R. Shunmugasundaram. You have three minutes.

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: Sir, I represent three Members in the House. So, you should give me eight minutes...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He always adheres to the timings. I appreciate it.

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM (TAMIL NADU): Sir, I welcome and support the Bill. A beginning has been made in giving reservation of 27 per cent to the Backward Classes in prestigious institutions which offer highly valued post graduate degrees. Only a few people were enjoying the facilities because they had better opportunities. Sir, not even one or two per cent of the school children are opportune to get the best of education offered by the urban schools. This Bill attempts to bridge the gap. Social injustice was caused to a large number of people for over 4600 years, at the time when Aryan invasion was made in this country in 2600 BC. Manu's Code, which was practised by the Aryan invaders said, "Those persons who educate themselves or chant mantras, their tongues should be cut." That was the punishment then. Even if we give all facilities to children today for their education, they will not be in a position to compete with others who have been enjoying the benefits for the last over 4,000 years.

In the Census of Madras Presidency in the year 1871, Volume 1 Page 197, Mr. W.R. Cornish, Census Superintendent, noticed that the Brahmin caste monopolised the Services. He said, "Politically it is not to the advantage of the Government that every question connected with the progress of the country should be viewed through the medium of Brahmin spectacles." In 1881, the Census Report says that the Brahmins, who were just 3.6 per cent, occupied nearly 42 per cent of the higher salaried jobs, and other Hindus, who were 88 per cent, occupied only 36 per cent of the jobs. As per the 1911 Census, the total population in the Madras Presidency was 4,18,70,160. The population of the Hindus was 3,72,30,034, out of which the non-Brahmins were 3,59,19,674 in number and the Brahmins were 13,10,360. This three per cent of the Brahmins held 97 per cent of the fertile lands in the Thanjavur district. Therefore, they had economic superiority, and they had all the opportunities. Sir, the Royal Commission was established in order to find out whether all classes and communities were duly represented in the Provincial (State) Services, and it was asked to recommend how to secure this object. The Brahmins, who met the Commission, were for selection on merit and efficiency basis. They opposed selection based on caste and told them that the prestige of the Services could be lowered. And, in the year 1919, the finding was given. As per the Census at that time, the Brahmins occupied 74 per cent in the Public Works Department; 50 per cent were in Revenue Department; 66 per cent in Judicial Department; and, 79 per cent in Education Department. Sir, another survey brought out in 1913, by hon. Sir Alexander Cardew reported that in the Competitive Examination for the Provincial Civil Services, the success rate of the Brahmins was 94 per cent; out of 128 permanent District Munsifs, 93 were Brahmins; out of five High Court Judges, four were Hindus and all the four were Brahmins. This was the statistics. Therefore, this gave rise to the birth of the Justice Party which fought for social justice.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude.

SHRI R. SHUNMUNGASUNDARAM: I just have two points more.

(Continued by 3Q)


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have taken up all the time in giving statistics. But you have not come to the point.

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: Sir, statistics are very important. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, please conclude.

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: Sir, the survey conducted by the Centre for Study of Developing Societies, along with Anil Chamaria, a freelance writer, and a journalist, Shri Jitendra Kumar, found that in the 37 media establishments that were surveyed, the upper caste men were 71 per cent and, they wrote only editorials and gave views; not one Dalit was there in the decision-making position. When this is the background, how can we expect any support for reservation in media? A Dalit, even if he is a Ph.D. in Theology and Sanskrit, cannot become a Shankaracharya. Then, Sir, casteism will remain a perpetual menace; quota system will not perpetuate caste-consciousness. It is only this attitude of the upper caste men that will perpetuate the caste system. Thank you. (Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Congress Party has eleven minutes and three speakers. Please divide the time amongst yourselves. Dr. Prabha Thakur. (Interruptions)

0 ϳ (֕ã֮): ֳ֯ן , ן -ϟ֟ ߵ ã (Ͼ ָ) ׾֬, 2006 þ֟ ִ֣Ԯ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ׾֬ ֮ פ֮ ׻֋ ֮־֤

, ֟ Ӳ-Ӳ , ָָ פֵ ָָ ֮ ӟָ , 000 ִֻ , 00/00 ִֻ , ܵ ִֵ ִֻ - ֳ 000 ָָ ֮ ֲ֨ פև , ֮֮ߵ Ϭ֮ ӡ , 000 ָԮ ֿ߻֟ ׻֋, ֮֮ߵ ӡ Ԯ , ׾֬ ֮ ׻֋ ٤ ֬և ֮־֤ ֕ 000 ֮־֤ ֬և , ָָ ֿ߻֟ ־֮ ײ֮ פֵ ָָ ָ֓ ״ן ֚ ܵ ֻ֟ ׮ֵ ִ֮ ֋, ָ ֵ ֋ פ֮ ׻֋ ָָ ״ן ֚ ֕ ־֮ ׾֬ ֵ ֵ

, ֤ ֳ ֮ ׾ָ֓ , -߮ ֟ ֮ ֟ ߅ , ֟ ןֳ ֱ ִֵ , ֲ ֛ ֟ ׯ֔ ִֵ ֓ ٣ ™ ִו ™ ֕ ָ ִ֮ ָ ״ֻ ֵ ֜ ֮ ׿ ã֮ ã֮ ֮ ֟ ֱ ָ ׻֋ ã֮ 27 ןֿ֟ ָ ָָ Ե ׻֋ և0և00 և0և00 ã֮ ָ ־֮֬ , ׻֋ ָָ ٤ ֬և

, ֲ ָ ָ ־ֻ ֟ , ׾ָ ϤԮ ֵו֟ ֟ ׸ ָ֬ ָ ָ ûִ ִ֕ ׻֋ ™ ׻֋ , ָ 000 ׻֋ ׸ ־ֻ ֟ , ־ֻ ָ ֕ ֕ ׿ ã֮ ִ֮֮ ָ Ù-㋿֮ כϵ ֻ ֟ , ִֵ ־ֻ ֵ ֟?


(3/ָ/ߋ־ ָ ֿ:)


0 ϳ (֟): ִֵ ־ֻ ֵ ֟ , ִֵ ׾ָ ֟ ? ֲ ׸ ֟ , ֲ ןֳ ־ֻ ֟ ? ֲ֠ ׾׳֮ ָ ֻ֮ כ ֟ , ֮ ָ֬ ָ, ִֵ ָ֬ ָ כ ֟ , , ֲ ןֳ ־ֻ ֟ , ֲ ־ֻ ֵ ֟ ?

֮֟ ָ , ִ֕ ן , ֛ ֹ ׯ֌ָ ֟և ֟߅ ֮ ֮֕ן -- ߔ ֣ , ֛֟ ֲ ׾֬ ׾֕ͮ ׻֋ ߙ ֮֜ ֤ ָ ׾֮֬ , ֵ֟ ֮ ׬ӿ ָ֮ ָ , ֲ ׾֬ ֵ ֵ , ִ ָ ֟ և ׻֋ ן׸ ߙ ֮֜ ֤ ָָ ָ ־ã , ֲ ֕ ָ פ ֟ ָ֮ , ָ֮ և ָ֮ , ָ - ֡-סֆ, וִָ ֡-סֆ ָ ֮׸ , ו ֆ ֮ ֛ ...(ִֵ ә)...

, ӟ ߴ -- ߴ ָ ֟ և, ָ ָ ֻ , ׮Ե , ׮Ե OBC, SC, ST ܵ ִֵ ߤָ ? , SC-ST -ָ ָ ָ ׾֮֕ ֟, OBC ד֟ ֻ ֟ ߅ ָָ ֬և ֮ ִ֮ ָ ׻֋, OBC ִֵ ֜ ׻֋ ׻֋ ׾֬ ֵ ϴ֟ ֵ , Ӭ օ ӟ ִ֕ ֮ SC-ST ֲ , ֻ ִ ִו ִָ֟ ֟ - ֻ ֋, ֟ Ѭ ִו ִָ֟ ֟ ֻ ֋, ִו ִָ֟ ֤֕ 56 ֤ ԅ ֲ ָ ׾֬ ֺ , , ׯ֔ , -ֻ , ֟ , ܵ ִֵ ֟ , ֲָָ ֮ , ִ֕ ֮ , ֜ ָ ״ֻ ִ֣Ԯ , ӟ ֿ ֻֻ ָ ֻ֟ , ֻ ֟ ָ 52 ןֿ֟ OBC ׾ֵ ֛ ָ ָߵ ֋ ֋ ֟ ߤ ٣ ßָ 9 ןֿ֟ , ִ ִ ֤ ߤָ ֮ ? ִ ֤, 52 ָ ׬ OBC ׬ 26 ןֿ֟ SC-ST ...(ִֵ ә)... ٣ ׾ ߤָ ָ ׮׿֟ , ָָ ָ ָߵ ֵ , ׳֕֟ ֮֕ן ׸ ֺ ךև ָ֮ , ׻֋ ׾ָ ֵו֟ ߤ ִ -ֻ ׯ֔ ֜ ֣ ֣ -- ״ֻ ָ ָ ֮ ׻֋ - ֮־֤ ֻֻ , ָ ֣ 27 ןֿ֟ ֜-֜͟ 52 ןֿ֟ ׻֋ ֯ - ֬ևԅ (ִ֯)

׮ ֵ (׿ִ ֻ) : ֮־֤, օ ײֻ ִ֣Ԯ ֟ օ 0 ֲ ן ִ֮ פ֟ ׾֮֬ ן ִ֮ פ֟ ׯ֔ 60 ֻ ׸־֮ , ִ֕ ׻֋, ׯ֔ , 滛 Ù 滛 և ָָ ִ֕ ָ ֮ ׻֋ ϵ ֵ?

(3/000 ָ ֿ:)



׮ ֵ (֟) : ֻ ֕ ִ֟ ßָ ָ, ֵָ ֻ ָ ֵָ ו֮ , ֓ ָ ߓ ֋, ָ ָ ״֟ ֋, ׻֋ ߓ ֮

ָ ֟, ׾֮֬ ָ ֵ 10 ֻ ׻֋ ־ã , ӿ֮ ִ ָ ׬ ָ-ָ ֜֟ ֋, ֕ ָ ֋, ֛ ֟ ָ ָָ , ָָ , ָ ֮ , ײֻ ֋, ׸ , ָ ֻ , ֻ ֋ ֟ ָ ־ ֮֕ן ֮֕ן ֛ ֜֋ꅠ פ ֻ֟ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ׯ֔ , 滛 Ù 滛 և ָ ֮ ׻֋ ׯ֔ 20 ֻ ֮ ָָ ֮ ֮ և ֮? և ֻ ֯ ׿ ֮֜ ׻֋ , ׻ ӛÙ׻Ù , ו ׻֋ ֯ , ׯ֮֙ , ֟ ׻֋ ָ ֯ ϵ ָ ֻ ײֻ ֤ ָָ ֮ ֮, ָָ ֵ֟ ֯ ֮ ֮, , ֲ ִ֮ ֋ ָָ ֮ ׯ֔ ִ֕ ֮֜ ߠ ׾֮֬ , ֯ פ , 0 14 , ױ 6 14 , 6 14 ֤ ֮ פ ׳ֳ־ ֋, ֲ ֮֜ וִָ ָָ ׾ ׻֋ ָָ וִָ , ׿ ׻֋ ָָ וִָ ָ ָָ ֳ ׌ֵ ׿֟ , ֻ ׯ֔ , וִָ ָָ 'ׯ֔' ִ , ָ ָ ׸ ִ֮ ֣, ׬ָ ֣ ן , ָ ׻֋ ֛ ݵ ֟ ָ ֵ֮ ָ ֜, ׻֋ ֛, ֻ ִ , ֋, ֮֋, ևָ ֻ ָ , ֻ ״֛- ߻ פ , ָ ֓ ֜ ָ ײػ , ֮֜ ׻֋ ׿ ׻֋ ָָ ܾß ָָ ָ , ֤ ָ , 00 ָ ׻֋ ֮֋ ֋ ׮ֻ֓ ßָ ָ ßָ ־ , ִ֕ , ׯ֔ ִ֕ , 滛 Ù, 滛 և ֮֜ ׻֋ ֲ ָ ϵ ܾß MPLAD ָ ï ָ ׸, ׸ ֜ ֋ꅠ ָ ֲ ײֻ ֟ , ֟ ָ߲ , ֮ פ ֜, פ , ֻ ןֳ ׾ , ןֳ ׾ ׻֋ ו֮ ߕ ־ֿ , ִ֮ և ־ֿ ׸ ֯ ײֻ ֋, ו ׸ , ָ פ ֻ ϵ ו֋ ָ ϵ ֮־ ֮֬ ׾ ӡ, Ԯ ֬և ֋ ׮ָָ , ִ֮ ֣ ߋ ׬ָ Ԯ פ ֋ ֲ ָ ָ ָ ֟ ߅

֣ ײֻ ִ֣Ԯ ֮־֤ (ִ֯)

'3t/sch' ָ ָ)


(ָ™): ֳ֯ן , ײֻ ִ֣Ԯ ׻֋ ֛ ָ Ԯ - ׳֮֮ ֮ ׾ָ ־֕ ו ײֻ ֵ, ֳ ָָ ֮ ִ֣Ԯ , ֟ ־ֿ ִ ָָ ã֮ ָ ׻ , ֕ ׾ֵ - (և) ֮֮ ֻ , ָָ ֕ ָָ ֤ ׮֕ ã֋ , ו ִֵ ׸֮ , ִֵ ִ ׮֕ ã ֮֮ ׻֋ ֯

ã֋ ֻ֟ , כ , ӕ׮ֵظ ָ ָ 40,000 ֓ ֜ , ָ þֵ ִ ֯ ֯ ֵ ֵָ ֮ ֲ ֤ ִ ׮֕ ã֮ , ױ כ ׻֋ ֱ ױ ֯ ? ֲ Ԯ ָ , ֲ ֯ ֵ - ֛֛ , ׮֕ ãֆ ֻ ָ - ֵ , ֲ ֻ ָ߲ ׯ֔ , ֵ֮ ֯ , ? ֲ ֯ ו֕ ׸ݮֿ֮ , ׻֙ߕ , ֮ ֟ ֮־ ?

þֵ ׮־֙ כ ָֻ ָ ֓ ֋Ӆ ֓ ֌ ֟ , ֜ ֻ 1% 2% ֓ ӕ׮ֵָ ֮֮ ֟ כ ֟ Ԯ ׸Ù ֵ ׻֋ ֋ ֻ ֿ

ו֮֟ ׮֕ ã֋ , ֳ ׮֕ ãֆ ֲ ֮ ָ ֯ ׸֮ ֻ ꅠ ָ ֵ ֯ ִ ֲ ߕ ׸ ֮֮ , þֵ ã ֻ֟ ִ֬ ׮ֻ֓ ßָ , פ ִ ֻ ״ֻ, ׻֋ ãֆ ֻ ֮֮ ִ ֺ  ׾ָ , ֟ ֛ ו ״ֻ , ָ ֟ ֲ ֓ ֜ ״֙߿֮ ?

֕ ݻֿ - ֵ ֟ әֻ֮ ״֛ ևָ ָ ߸ ֓ ֜ ָ ָ Ӿ ֮֜ ׻֋ ׿ ״ֻ֟, ָ߲ ֓ ֮ ָ ֓ ָ ָ߲ ֓ ֵָ ֮ ׬ָ , ׻֋ ײֻ ִ֣Ԯ פ ֯ ׮־ ָ ׮֕ ã֋ ִ , ևָ כ ӕ׮ֵظ ֛-֛ ִ֬ , ֯ ָ ֯ ֮ ׮֕ ã ֻ֮ ֯ ָ ײֻ ִ֮ ֛օ ֳ ײֻ ֻ֮ ֛ ֳ ֵ֮ ֳ ֵ ꅠ ֮ ֟ ֮֯ ֟ ִ֯ ֮־֤ (ִ֯)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shri Hanumantha Rao, you have only three minutes.


SHRI V. HANUMANTHA RAO (ANDHRA PRADESH): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I do not want to take much time because many Members from our Party have already spoken.

Sir, introduction of the Bill providing reservation to the OBCs in the Central Educational Institutions (Reservation in Admission) Bill, 2006 is an important milestone in the cause of educational development of OBCs and fulfils the long pending demand of the OBCs since Independence. The credit goes to the present UPA Government for which the OBCs are grateful to the Government and my congratulations to the Government.

At present, the OBCs have no proper facilities to study in prestigious public schools like other students due to poverty and lack of such schools in the rural areas. Hence they are not able to come up fast like other sections of the society. The Government must take all measures to improve infrastructure and facilities providing access to quality education in the rural areas to enable them to take advantage of the reservation in IITs and IIMs and other Central educational institutions now made available to the OBCs after 60 years of Independence.

The OBCs and SC/ST students have been demanding enhancement in the rates of the scholarship and mess charges in the hostels, as the present rates are very meagre to meet the cost of maintenance in the hostels, etc. (Contd by 3U)


SHRI V. HANUMANTHA RAO (CONTD.): There have been demonstrations in Andhra Pradesh and other places and recently the students in Hyderabad had to face lathi charges by the police for raising their voices for this genuine demand. I earnestly request the Central Government to enhance the allocation for educational facilities for the OBCs at the High School and College level as the present allocation of only Rs. 100 crores for the current year is too meagre to meet the educational needs of the OBCs who constitute more than 60 per cent of the country's population. Unless the Government provides more funds, minimum of Rs. 500 crores for the welfare of the OBCs and enhance educational facilities to have access to quality education at the school level, they will not be able to take advantage of the reservations provided in the Bill. The OBCs must be given good education and coaching facilities in this regard. Before I support, I want to congratulate UPA Chairperson, Shrimati Sonia Gandhi, Shri Manmohan Singh, Shri Arjun Singh and also all UPA partners, Shri Lalu Prasad Yadav, Shri Karunanidhi and Shri Ramadoss. I support this Bill. I am an OBC candidate. Thank you, Sir. Ends)

DR. BARUN MUKHERJEE (WEST BENGAL): Thank you, Sir, for giving me the opportunity on this Bill of very great concern to the people. As we all know, there are many old stories in our country on deprivation, exploitation. Even as long back as the epic of Mahabharatha we find that there are instances of such deprivation and exploitation. If we can recall the story of great Arjun, when he was learning archery, at that time, the little genius Eklavaya was neglected and not given the opportunity to learn as the opportunity was given to the Prince Arjun. It is all due to the deprivation of backward classes even at that epic age of Mahabharatha. It is an irony of fate that Arjun of today has come forward to give opportunities, extending the opportunities for training in higher education to the downtrodden Eklavaya of today. So, I congratulate the hon. Minister Shri, Arjun Singh for introducing the Bill. But, we must remember at the same time that when one wants to go against the stream he must have the courage and conviction to go against the stream. As we know, during the renaissance period in Bengal, the great educationist and social reformer, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar had to fight hard when he wanted to introduce widow re-marriage. He wanted the emancipation of the young widows whose lives were going to be destroyed under social oppression,. But he had to face a lot of stiff opposition from the entire society. But he had the courage and conviction to go against the prevailing stream and at last he won in his noble purpose. Similarly, in the so-called caste based society, the tradition is against the downtrodden people, the under privileged people. Unless we give them enough opportunities for their upliftment they will remain below the level of the common people as it was found during the age of Mahabharatha. (Contd. by NBR/3W)


DR. BARUN MUKHERJEE (CONTD.): So, I think, in spite of much opposition, I support the Bill so that we can go ahead with our objective. But, one thing, before I conclude, I must say that there is every possibility of this opportunity being misused. I am afraid that the creamy layer or the economically highly placed people, within the OBCs, will enjoy the cream or fruits of this. So, I think, there has to be a provision for excluding the creamy layer of the OBCs. Unless we exclude the creamy layer, the whole purpose of the Bill will be defeated. Hence, I propose for consideration of the hon. Minister for excluding the creamy layer of the OBCs from the Bill.

Another thing I wish to say is...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude.

DR. BARUN MUKHERJEE: Apart from the Central Educational Institutions, unaided institutions should also be brought within the purview of this Bill. The Government should go one step forward to include them in this Bill. Thank you. (Ends)

ָ ׮ִԻ ֯ӛ (ִ-׮֤׿֟) : ֲ ֯ - ֮־֤ ֯ , ֮ ָ


ָ ׮ִԻ ֯ӛ: ֳ֯ן , ײֻ ֵ , ָ ָ օ ֟ ֮ , ָ ָ , ߻ , ׾ָ , ִ ר֮ פև ֮ ? פ ? ֲ ֟ , פ , , Ӳ׬֟ , ִ֣Ԯ ֻֻ Ӭ ֟ ֺ ֮֟ ֺ ִ֟ ֲ ֕ 75 ֻ ׻֟ ָ ׻֋, ׻֋ ׸֮ ӑ ã֮֯ ִ ֣ף֟ ןֵ ִָ, ֟ ֣ ִ ָ ״ֻ֛֮ ָֻ֕֓, ֲ֮ ָ ֟ ײֻ ִ֣Ԯ ֮ ֯ ן , ֜ ִ֣Ԯ , ׻֋ Ӥ֮ ֲ ו Ӭ߾֤ ׾ָ֓ , ׬ֵ֮ spirit , ָ ִ ׻֋ ֮֟ ֲ Ծ ֮֟ ִ֣Ԯ ֣ ֟ ֺ ִ֕ ׯ֔, ׻֟, פֵ ִ ֻ ָ , ֮ ֮ ָ ָ ׾֬֋ ־֕ ִ֕ ֮ ֲ ֤֟ , ֲ ֳ ׻֋ ִ֕ ֮ ֤֮ ׻֋, ׮ֵ֟ ֲ֤߻ ֮ ׻֋ ֯ ֮-Ӥ֮ ֮-Ӥ֮ ֲ , ו֮ ֳ ֻ ָ և- , ו֮ ׬ָ ״ֻ , ׬ָ , ׬ָ פ֮ ָ Ծ ֮ ֲ ָ ֮ Ӥ֮ ֣-֣ ֻ, ֳ spirit , ֮ ֱ֟ ָ ֜ ֟ ֕ ָ ָ ׿֟ , ֮ Ӿ ֲ ֟ ֟ ϟכ ֟ ֕ ִ֕ ֮ ָ ִ֮ , ָ ֮ ׸֟Ԯ ֺ ֮ ֮ ִ , ִ֕ ִ֕ ֮ ׸֟Ԯ ֮ , ִ֟ ã֮֯ , ֮ ֮ ֟ ִ֯ - ֮־֤ (ִ֯) (3 ָ ֿ:)


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Prof. P.J. Kurien. You can take the time that you asked for. It is between you and me.

PROF. P.J. KURIEN (KERALA): Sir, I will stick to the time that you allowed. Sir, first of all, I would like to state that I support this Bill in toto. Having said that, I would like to say or clarify some points which I feel I should do.

Sir, this Bill excludes the minority institutions from its ambit. I personally feel that the minority institutions should also share the responsibility and burden of implementing social justice. This I am saying keeping in mind, especially, the fact that the hon. Minister is going to introduce another Bill where this reservation will be extended to aided institutions and even unaided institutions. You know that in aided institutions, a large number of good institutions are minority institutions. When we keep away those institutions from the ambit of reservation, I think, on the one side, we are denying the opportunity to a large number of OBCs to enter those institutions, and on the other side, we are denying the minorities to share this burden and the responsibility of implementing reservation and taking this burden. Now, why do I say this? I know there may be Constitutional hurdles, but the Minister has to try to sort it out and find out ways and means of getting over these Constitutional hurdles. He can also talk to the minorities, leaders of the minorities to willingly accept implementing reservation in their institutions. Sir, in Kerala, in 1972, there was a problem similar to this. At that time, the Government of Kerala entered into a dialogue with the minority private institutions, including the minority institutions, then, the minority institutions, all institutions, including the minority institutions, agreed to implement reservation for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes in their institutions. So, either legally, or, through a dialogue, I would request the hon. Minister to continue the effort to extend this to them.

Sir, my second point is that there are Dalits among Muslims and Christians also. In fact, genuinely, they are not getting the benefit of reservation. I want the hon. Minister to consider this point. Here I would explain my personal experience. There was a Dalit Christian who studied with me up to SSLC; up to 10th Class, and passed 10th class with me. I see even today he is an agricultural labourer because he is a Dalit Christian, he could not get a job. This is what is happening. Therefore, please consider how benefits can be given to Dalit Muslims and Dalit Christians.

Sir, I have only one more point to make. The third point is that there are very poor people among the forward castes. (Contd by 3Y/PK)


PROF. P.J. KURIEN (CONTD.): Those weaker sections among the forward cast should also be helped. The Government and the Minister should consider some ways, either through reservation or through financial assistance, by which these poorer sections or weaker sections of the so-called upper caste can also be helped. Sir, I have an experience this year when the PG admission to the colleges was taking place. One father with his daughter came to me and requested to recommend in a Christian college, in a minority college, for admission to her. Then, I said, "Maybe you are late; you may not get." And I found that father and the girl together weeping saying that "We have no other go, please help us." I said, " Why have you no other go?" The father said, "Sir, I am a brahmin, nobody to help." Sir, I immediately took up that case, went to the college, talked to the management, Press, and got her admission. But this touched my heart. Sir, among the upper castes also, there are a lot of people who are suffering and they have no other go. So, the Government should also consider, alongwith this, some reservation, or financial accommodation or help to the weaker sections in the upper castes. This has been upheld by the Supreme Court also. Sir, I have only these three suggestions. I hope the hon. Minister will consider these three suggestions. With these words, I fully support the Bill which the hon. Minister has brought forward. Thank you. (Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shri Malaisamy; you have three minutes. I know it would be very difficult for you, but you must try.

DR. K. MALAISAMY (TAMIL NADU): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, at the outset, I hasten to pat and praise the hon. Minister of Human Resource Development for having brought forward a legislation relating to reservation for the OBCs. My only grouse is that it has been brought forward belatedly, but it was long overdue. It should have come earlier. Number two, this has been aimed or envisaged for a limited purpose. According to me, it should have had a comprehensive outlook to take care of more and more. Sir, we have been listening to the entire House. Most of the entire House is in favour of supporting the Bill. There are a few who have reservations on the Reservation Bill. Sir, to be plain with you, the background of Indian conditions are shrouded with a lot of diversities, differences and dimensions in terms of caste, creed, colour, language, religion, ethnic, etc, etc. with the result there were a lot of inequalities, economical, social and educational. How to balance those inequalities? I mean, we need some sort of extra package for the poor, or the depressed, or the oppressed to come along with the upper strata. Sir, take the case of a mother in a family. Suppose, she has two or three children. One of them happens to be sick and infirm. In such a situation, what the mother normally does. She gives extra milk, extra nutrition, so that he or she can come along with the other children. This is the attitude of a mother. The same attitude should be there of the Government. So, they are right in coming with a Bill of this nature. Sir, though it is belated, I have two other points to highlight. I will stick to my time, Sir. As far as this Bill is concerned, now, a lot of difficulties have arisen in reference to the court verdicts. Sir, the Indian democracy stands on three pillars, the executive, the legislature and the judiciary, operating through bureaucracy and assisted by the Fourth Estate. These three pillars are responsible for the Indian democracy. I mean, these three pillars should not conflict with each other. They should run and revolve in harmony. Unfortunately, there are frictions between the Legislature and the Judiciary. Sir, I am highlighting only one point. Mr. Deputy Chairman and the hon. Minister may kindly listen to me. In many of the issues relating to reservation, I could see, of late, that the Supreme Court has been very hostile towards that issue. In other words, in Mandal's case, they fixed it as 50 per cent, whereas the total population of the BC, the SCs and the STs come to the extent of 90-95 per cent. (Contd. by 3Z/PB)


DR. K. MALAISAMY (CONTD.): Only five per cent alone is the upper caste or the forward community. In such a situation, the Supreme Court felt that putting together all reservation, fifty per cent would do. That is number one.

Sir, in Tamil Nadu, -- thanks to the efforts made by Madam Jayalalitha, -- a legislation was passed for providing reservation to the extent of sixty nine per cent. So, this sixty nine per cent reservation has been included in the Ninth Schedule through Parliament under Article 31. With all that, it went to the Supreme Court, but it is pending. Thirdly, Sir, the Supreme Court has taken a view on creamy layer about which a lot of discussion has already taken place. As far as creamy layer is concerned, that is not an issue before the Supreme Court. But, they have taken cognisance of it. Sir, though no advice of the Supreme Court was sought either by the President or by the Parliament, they have taken cognisance of it.

Sir, with reference to providing reservation up to sixty-nine per cent and the creamy layer, there is no issue. Though the concept of creamy layer was not at all provided in the Constitution, a cognisance has been taken. What I am trying to highlight here is that the Supreme Court is taking cognisance of a certain issue which is not in existence before them at all. What I am trying to ask again and again is that when the Supreme Court is hostile in an issue like reservation, what the hon. Minister is going to do with that? Sir, before I conclude, I would like to seek one or two clarifications.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No; there is no need of clarifications. It is not a statement.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, I am not able to get enough time. I know your problem also. Sir, I will take a minute to sum up.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No; no clarifications.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, my first point is, you have mentioned about providing reservation to OBCs in admission in Central Government institutions and aided institutions. What about the Central Government undertakings? There are plenty of Central Government undertakings/ institutions. I assume that they are also included under that. That is my first point.

My second point is, there are umpteen number of State institutions and State-aided institutions. I would like to know whether the reservation provided to the OBCs would be extended to them automatically, or, you may try to say that the concerned State Government will look into that. If that be the case, what role you have to play, as far as the State institutions and State-aided institutions are concerned. Sir, there are umpteen number of private institutions and minority institutions. Of course, they are not taking any aid from the Government. What I mean to say, they are not aided institutions. But what I am trying to say is, they are enjoying umpteen number of concessions, umpteen number of assistances, not in the manner of aided institutions, but in terms of various other ways. In such a situation, what are you going to do? I would like to know whether you will apply your legal authority or your moral authority in order to do something in that. ...(Time-bell)... Sir, as far as Tamil Nadu is concerned, sixty-nine per cent is already in vogue. ...(Time-bell)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brij Bhusan, three minutes.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, only one minute.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No; no; you have already taken seven minutes. It is not correct. It is not correct.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, I will take only one minute. I certainly appreciate it.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You say one minute, but you take five minutes. Please conclude.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, I will take fifty seconds. Now, a privilege has been given. It is pending before the Supreme Court. In case the Supreme Court differs with this view, what are you going to do? A privilege given to a society cannot be taken back. What are you going to do? ...(Time-bell)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes; Mr. Brij Bhushan. ...(Interruptions)... Please. Keep all your other queries for the next debate.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, I am making very valid points. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In that case, you should have taken the first chance. ...(Interruptions)... Now, I have called the next speaker.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, finally, I would like to know whether by increasing the seats, ...(Interruptions)... the quality will suffer. I leave it to you, Sir. (Ends)

ֳ֯ן : , ֵ ֯ ߮ ״֮֙ ֮ ֟ ִ֯

(ָ Ϥ) : ֳ֯ן , ֲ ֯ ן ֳָ ֌ ֮֯ ֤ ָ ֮ פ ײֻ פ ִ֣Ԯ ָ ׾ָ, ֤ ֤ , ֮ ״ֻ , ִ֟ ָ ׾ָ ־֮֟ ֮֕ן ֤ , ֣֟ օ ֳ֯ן , ִ֮ ֺ ָ ׾ָ , ָ ֕ ֮ Ϥ, ָ™ ָ֟ ֕ ֲ ֤ ׾ָ, ָ ָ פ , ֲ ֤ ן ָ (4 ָ ֿ:)