There is a statement by the Minister at 2.00 p.m.

SHRI P.G. NARAYANAN: Sir, I will take only a few minutes. I will not take much time.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: The time allotted to you is already over. And the hon. Minister has to make a statement at 2.00 p.m.

SHRI P.G. NARAYANAN: Sir, this is an important point.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You can continue after the statement.


THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: There is a statement by Shri Suresh Pachouri on behalf of Shri Priyaranjan Dasmunsi.




THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (SHRI SURESH PACHOURI): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, with your permission, on behalf of my senior colleague, Shri Priyaranjan Dasmunsi, I beg to make the following statement regarding the amendments to the Salary, Allowances and Pension of Members of Parliament Act, 1954 and Rules made thereunder.

The Salary, Allowances and Pension of Members of Parliament (Amendment) Act, 2006 was notified on September 15, 2006. As per this Amendment Act, the Salary and Daily Allowance of the Members of Parliament were revised to Rs. 16,000/- per month and Rs. 1,000/- per day with effect from September 14, 2006. The other provisions of the Act, namely, revised road mileage of Rs. 13/- per kilometre, revised minimum pension of Rs. 8,000/- per month, revised minimum family pension of Rs. 4,000/- per month etc. were made effective with effect from September 15, 2006.

As mentioned by my colleague during the discussion on this Bill in this House on 24th August, 2006, increase was also proposed in constituency allowance to Rs. 20,000/- per month, office expense allowance to Rs. 20,000/- per month, revision in the ceiling of durable and non-durable furniture to Rs. 60,000/- and Rs. 15,000/- respectively, etc. These modifications were to be made effective through amendments to the various rules made under this Act. Some of these amendments like revision in the ceiling of durable and non-durable furniture and extension in the retention period of Government accommodation after the demise of a Member were to be made effective from retrospective dates.

Normally, the rules made under the provisions of this Act are made effective from the date of publication in the Gazette. Hence, the question of giving retrospective effect to some of these facilities was examined in consultation with the Ministry of Law and Justice. The Law Ministry has pointed out that Section 9 of the Salary, Allowances and Pension of Members of the Parliament Act, 1954 relating to the power of the Joint Committee to make rules do not have a provision for giving retrospective effect to the rules to be framed under the Act and, therefore, these rules if given a retrospective effect will be ultra vires of the Act of 1954.

In view of the above, it was decided to notify the rules with prospective effect and to consider the question of amending Section 9 of the said Act to make a provision to give retrospective effect to the rules after following the due procedures.

Sir, the amendments in the rules relating to revised constituency allowance, office expense allowance, etc. have since been notified by the Lok Sabha Secretariat with prospective effect and will be available to the hon. Members of Parliament with effect from 12th December 2006.

(Ends) (Continued by 2o/PB)




THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Mr. Narayanan, please conclude. Your time is already up. Kindly conclude in one minute.


The Government is going to give 27 per cent reservation to OBCs only out of the increased seats in the educational institutions. Sir, what about the existing seats? There is no reservation at all for OBCs in the total existing seats. Are you really rendering social justice to the OBCs? It is not. So, I demand that 27 per cent reservation to OBCs should be implemented out of our total existing seats.

In the Schedule, Sir, eighteen Government institutions are exempted from the purview of the reservation. All the eighteen institutions are getting cent per cent grant from the Central Government. So, the SC/ST and OBCs are prevented to get seats in those eighteen institutions. Is it justified, Sir? Do you think that OBCs and SC/STs are not intelligent? They are intelligent enough; they are well qualified enough. You don't want the OBCs and other weaker sections to become scientists. Sir, it is very unfair. So, these eighteen institutions of excellence should also be brought within the purview of reservation. Sir, this is my demand. But I know this Government will not do this because the Government has no political will to do the justice. Sir, I do not know why the regional parties like the DMK and PMK, which are constituents of the UPA Government, are not opposing this injustice done to the OBCs. They are interested only in themselves. They have no time to think about the welfare of the common man.

Sir, the Bill may be passed in this House, but the society will not forgive this Government for this injustice done to the OBCs. They will teach a fitting lesson to them at an appropriate time. (Ends)

0 ִ ӛָ (ײָ) : ֮֮ߵ ֳ֬ , ָߵ ֤ ן ֮֮ߵ ӡ ִ ָ օ 80 ןֿ֟ ׯ֔ ׻֟ , ׻֋ ӡ ײֻ - ߵ ã (Ͼ ָ) ׾֬, 2006 ֤ ß , ߻ ָ֟ ãׯ֟

, ֯ ן ׾֬ ֮ þ֟ ִ֣Ԯ ׳֮֮ ֮֮ߵ ֮־ ֮֬ ׾ ӡ, Ԯ , ֮֮ߵ Ϭִ֮ӡ, 0 ִ֮ , 000 ָָ֮, ׮ֵ ִß ס-ӛ , ו֮ 80 ןֿ֟ ׯ֔ ׻֟ ֲ֤ ֮ ֿ ӓָ

('2p/sch' ָ ָ)


. ִ ӛָ (֟): ֳ ײֻ ־ִן , ׾ ֕ ֳ ־ִן ׸ ߅

, ׾֮֬ ׮ִԟֆ ֟ , ֟ ֮ ֤֕ ֳ Ӥ ָ , ו֮ ֣ף֟ ר߾ , ֮ ן ܵ ֲ֤ , וִ ָ߲, ֟, ד֟, ׯ֔ ׻֟ , ׬ָ ד֟ ׻֋ ׾֮֬ 滛 Ù 滛 և ׻֋ 22.5% ָ ־ã և , ֱ ׸ ׻ ֤ ׾֮֬ ӛ ׻֋ ָ ־ã և

, ֮֮ ׾֮֬ ׯ֔ ׻֋ ָ ־ã ֮ , և ָ ֣ ֵ օ ֻ ֵ ֓ , ֵ 1953 ֮ 1955 ׸ ֻ և, ָ ָ ׸ ԅ 1978 .. ӛ ֵ ֮օ .. ӛ ֵ ׸ ֵ 1990 , ֲ ׾֣֮ ϟ֯ ָָ ֮, ֲ ִ ӛ ֵ ֱ׸ ׮Ե օ

, , ֲ ָ ִו ֵ ֟ ן֛ ӓ ֟ ֻ ߴ ֟ 1993 ӛ ״ֿ֮ ׸ ֆ ֵօ

, ֕ ״ֿ֮ ֮ꅠ ֤ Ը , ײָ ܵ ӡ , ֻ ֵ ֵ֮ ֵ ָ ײָ ׯ֔ ׻֋ ֱ ׸ , ׻ ִ ׻֋ ָ ־֮֬ օ , ֤֮ ָ ֮֮ߵ Ԯ ײֻ ׻֋ ֱ ׻ֵ ״ֻ , ׻ ֻ ֻ֋ ֋ ײָ ֻ֟ ߅ ֤ ײָ Ը , , , ׻ֵ և, ֻև և, ֻև և, ָ֓ ׯ֔ ָ ֻ֋ ֋ . ֣ ֟ .. - ׻ֵ և, ֻ ֻ֋ ֋

ָ ו֮ 80% ֤ ֲ֤ ׾֬ֆ ׻ֵ , ִע ָ, ֮ ָ, ׿ ָ, ָ, ן ָ ׬ָ , ֻ ֮ ָ߲ , ֻ , ֱֻ ָ ׾֬ ֋, ֱֻ ָ-ָ ן ִ

, ׻ֵ , ֣ , ֲ ӛ ״ֿ֮ ֙ , ӛ ׮ֻ פօ ӛ ״ֿ֮ ֵֻ ׻֋ ӛ ׮ֻ ӛ ? ߅ , ִϤ׵ ߅ ֛ ָ ֮ , ֵ ִע ֻ և, ֯ ֛ 2Q/MCM ָ ָ


0 ִ ӛָ (֟) : ָ ִϤ׵ ֵօ , ׸ ײֻ ֤ ִ֣Ԯ ֤ ׾ָ ֤ ׻י ֙ ֟ ߅ , ִ ָ ׾ָ ָ֟ ָ ׾ָ ֮֟ ִ֣Ԯ ֻߠ ֙ ߚ ֣֮֯֯ ׻֋ ֟ , ִ ֻ , ֯ ָ ָ , ָ ׾ָ , 80 ןֿ֟ ֲ֤ ו פ ֛ ָ ָ ֋, פ ֯ ׾ָ , ֯ ֮ ß ״ֻօ ׻֋ ָָ ֮ ֮֟ , ֮ ֯ ׮֋ , ֤ 1990 ֲ ׸ ָ ֟ פ -, ָ ֺ , ׿֟ ֮և, ׿ ָ ו֋ ֕ ֲ ׿ ָ פ , ݵ֟ ןֳ ן ׾ֿ ִע ָ ֟ ֲ 0 ߴָ־ ָ ׾֮֬ ׮ִԟ , ד֟ ן օ , ָ , ָ ׿ , ߟָ ֻ֮- , - ־ã , Ͽ ןֵ ׳֕֟ ִ ֛ , ָ , ֯ ֟ ֻ և , ֜ ׻֋ ֙ և, פ ֋, ֻ߿֮ ײػ , ֛ ָ , ֮֜ ֻ ݵ ׿ ֲ ֛ ו֋, , ™ן ־֮ ֻ , ֣-֣ ו֋ ֲ ֻ ָ ֋ ִ ןֳ ݵ֟ ָ ׿ ָ ָ ׿ ־ã ֣-֣ ֻꅠ ׻ֵ , ןֳ ֟ ִ֟ ֮ ִ֟ ֮ ? 80 ןֿ֟ ֲ֤ 60 ִ֟ ֵ֮ ......(־֮֬) ֮֯ "ִ֟" ֲ ϵ ָ֮

00 ׻ֵ : ״֮֙, ו ֲ ϵ , ֯ ֳӿ ֟ ׸ ֲ ϵ 1951 ֲ ӿ֮ ֵ ֵ, ָ ߴ֮ ֌ ֵ ָ ӱÙָ ֤ ֮ Ùߙ ֮, ִ ֱ ֻܵ ֟ օ ֕ ֮־ ãן , ָ ߾ֻ ֮֋ ָ ָ ֺ ִ֟ ֮֋ꅠ օ

0 ִ ӛָ : ߾ֻ ֮֋ ִ֟ ֮֋ꅠ 80 ןֿ֟ ֲ֤ 60 ִ֟ ֮ ؓ֟ ֯ꅠ פ ִ֟ ֮ ߅ , ֯ ׮־ օ ãן ֕ ׻֟ ֕-֕ ֣ ֤ ֟ , ֕ ָ ֜ פ ֟ -߮ פ ֟ , ֕ ִ , ֮֕ , ֯օ.....(־֮֬)

֮֯ ׻֟ ֣ ן Ӥ֮ ָ ֋ ׻֟ פ ֮ ꅠ ׻ֵ ָ , ֟ -֮.....(־֮֬)

00 ׻ֵ : ߲ ֟ , ָ 80 ןֿ֟ ֮֋ 20 ןֿ֟ ......(־֮֬)

0 ִ ӛָ : ?.....(־֮֬)

00 ׻ֵ : ֟ ֋߅.....(־֮֬) (2R ָ )


0 ִ ӛָ : ? ..(־֮֬).. ִ֕ ß׾ ִ֮ ..(־֮֬).. ָ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֬ ( פ ס־) : ӛָ , ֯ , ֤ פ֮ ֯ ֙ ֟ ״֮֙ , ï ֮֯ 10 ״֮֙ ׻֋ ֯ ֙ ï ..(־֮֬)..ߕ ֈ ..(־֮֬)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ֳ֬ , ֤ ֯ - ֟ 0 ִ ֮ օ ..(־֮֬).. 0 ִ ֮ ֕ ӟ֮, ֲ ׿ ִ֮օ ֟ - ו ו֮֟ ܵ ָ, ֮ ָ߅ , Ӭ Ӛ, ׯ֔ ־ ֣օ

ֳ֬ (0 00 ׸֮ ) ߚ߮

, ֮ ִ֕־֤ 0 ִ ֮ օ ..(־֮֬)..

00 ׻ֵ: ָ ٙ 45 1950 פ , ־ֻ ? ..(־֮֬)..

0 ִ ӛָ: ֯ ֟ , ֯ ֟ þ֟ ָ ֯ ׸ ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ִ֣Ԯ AIIMS ֛ ߚ ֣֯֯֟ ׸ ..(־֮֬)..

0 0 ׻ֵ : ֯ ֟ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Ahluwaliaji, please do not disturb him in his speech. (Interruptions)

0 ִ ӛָ: , ֟ ߴ ָ ָ օ ..(־֮֬).. ߴ ָ ? ߴ ָ , ֻև ָ ֻև ֟ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ײֻ ֲ ׻֋ ֋ , ו ֙ ״ֻ , 滛 Ù 滛 և ׻֋ ָ , ֮ 15-16 ןֿ֟ ֤ ָ ֯ ֻևԤָ ֲ ִ , 15-16 ן֬֟ ָ ן ֮ ֻ כ ֳ Ù ָ֮ ָ ֱ , ׻֋ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ֬և ײֻ ֻևԤָ ֲ ִ ߕ

, ֲ ָ ӡ օ ִ ָ ֲ ֵ ײֻ , "to provide for the reservation in admission to the students belonging to Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribe and Other Backward Classes to certain education institutions..." , ֵ ֲ ï™ ָ ֲ ï™ , ֮ ֮ ֻ ר֮ ֲ ִ֬ ꅠ ׻֋ ֲ ׾ֻׯ֟ ֋ ï™ ֋ ֲ ֤ ָ ֲ ֋ , Institution of excellence , ָ ..

ֳ֬ (0 00 ׸֮): ֯ և ָ ֵ

0 ִ ӛָ: , ׯ֔ , 滛 Ù 滛 և ֕ Ӥ ? ׸ , ִָ֟ ? ֕ ֯ Ӥ ֟ ׸, ׻֋ ֕ ֋ 滛 Ù 滛 և ֛ ׻֋ ֕ ֋ ֯ ̾և ָָ ײֻ ׻֟ , י֨ ֲ֕ ֤ ֻ ֮֯ ָ ֻ ׻ֵ , ו֋, ־և ־ֿ

, ֟ ָ֓ ֵ ӲӬ ׮ָֿ֮֕ ׸ ִֻ֮ ָ և ָ֓ ֵ ָ ׾ֿ ָ ׻֋ , ߸-߸ ߔ ֻ ֋ ֣ ׮ָֿ֮֕ ãן ֮ ֋߅ ׻֋ ׮־ ָ֓ ֵ ׸ և , ֟ , ֻ ִֻ֮ ׻֋ ׾ֿ ־֮֬ ֋, ׾ֿ ָ פ ֋Ӆ (2 ָ ָ)


0 ִ ӛָ (֟) : , ׮֕ ã֮ ָ ־֮֬ ָָ ã֮ ֮ ׮֕ ã֮ ܵ ֤ ׻֋ ׮֕ ã֮ ָ ־֮֬ ֯ ִ֬ ֵ֯׻ ִו ׸֟Ԯ ִ֮֟ ̲֕ ָ֬ ֮, ו ֕ ß ֳ ֵ ״ֻ ָָ ֵ֯׻ ӓֻ֮ ֳ , ֳ ִ ן׮׬֟ , ׻֟, ׯ֔ ܵ ן׮׬֟ , ָ ߴ 27 ןֿ֟ ֜ ָ 52 ןֿ֟ ֲ֤ ׯ֔ ֳ 25 ןֿ֟ ֲ֤ ׻֟ ָ ߴ ֓ ןֿ֟ , ߴ ߴ ֮֜ ӟ , ִו ֵ ֨ӟ ָ ֬׸ ׻֟, ׯ֔ ׿ ãֆ ָ , Ӿ׮ ׬ָ , ֮ ָ ֲ ֵ ֮ Ӿ׮ ׻֋ ӑ օ ֬ כ ߅ ֮֮ߵ Ԯ ִ ן ָ օ ׻֟ ׯ֔ ׻֋ ֮֮ߵ Ԯ ִ֙ ֮ ֋ ֳ ׻֟ ׯ֔ ߑ ߾֮ ִ֮ ֲ ֣, ֮֮ߵ ӡ ֳָ ֌ ֯ ֳָ ֌ ֮֯ ִֵ פօ ֮־֤ (ִ֯)

SHRI K. KESHAVA RAO (ANDHRA PRADESH): Thank you very much, Sir. Before I really start, it is a great day. Nonetheless, let me also express my reservations and also my own sordid feelings for the simple reason, as Bhandariji says, it is not somebody's mercy that is coming. That is not any high-piece thing that they are giving today after sixty years, or, six decades of our independence, or, 3,000 years of our struggle that there is some kind of a munificence that they are handing over to us. This has been the right which has been denied to the people for all these years. And, the Republic should give us the strength to get up. It is true that the backward classes both as individuals and as a movement have been asserting for this day and have got it today, but, nonetheless, with all kind of reservations and shortcomings that you have in the Bill. I was wondering, Sir, we have given unto ourselves a Constitution which starts by saying 'We, the people of India given to ourselves the Constitution' which promises to give you the equality and liberty, both social and whatever it is, and fraternity. Who are these people about whom we are trying to talk? Have we ever realised, I am trying to appeal to Ahluwaliaji, these people who wanted to build this nation as a sovereign nation to be known as 'India' that is 'Bharat'? We must understand that we inherited a stratified society, a hierarchical society, where caste is a reality, where not only caste is a reality, caste discrimination is a reality. The cruel discrimination to which we have been subjected to for 3,000 or 4,000 years is a reality. What do we do? Why do we get a sovereign nation at all? Why do we get a free nation at all? Why do we fight for freedom at all? Why do we fight for independence at all? If we have to only suffer the same bondages, same chides, there would not have been all this kind of freedom struggle. If we have struggle, it was only to build a nation with egalitarian polity that, we have thought, would give us a new social order. That social order we are thinking when we have come back to give and implement and transform the promises that we have made in the Constitution and also promised to bring in a legislation that will bring in that kind of a new polity. We have to think of the society which is stratified. That exactly is the background that we must look into when we are looking to this kind of social legislations, coming through concrete king. Although I am congratulating the Minister here and share the sentiments expressed by most of the people, as an activist of the movement, I have my own tears to shed. I have not been understanding why, all of a sudden, you have come out with a great promise, is withdrawn, even after Moily telling us that there is no question of getting back, and again the gentleman says that it will bulldoze the quotas. (Contd. by 2t-ysr)


SHRI K. KESHAVA RAO (CONTD.): Sir, I am trying to make this debate go beyond the debilitating stand-off between merit and social justice. But I will take it up later. But, nonetheless, if we are to look at the society in which we live and understand and realise and also try to live up to our own promises made to the people during the freedom or later through the Constitution, we would realise that this kind of legislations are not only a must, but are inevitable also. Even the people who opposed earlier, today know the inevitability of such legislations, though they may not immediately accept it. This really makes us realise to come to the background which Mr. Ahluwalia has said. I have been listening to him with rapt attention because he was the only hon. Member who had been trying to put some kind of critical evaluation to the entire thing. But I have not really understood what exactly he was trying to make except saying muthibhar people. If 78-80 per cent of the people are muthibhar, and 15 per cent are all that make this country, if that is the diversity, which always ensures equality, that is the diversity that makes a nation, then I am really sorry for the kind of promises that we have made to them, both constitutionally and in this august House.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Can you yield for a minute?


SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: In the initial remarks of my speech, I said that whatever you were saying was about oppression of 3000 years, and then saying that they were deprived for the last six decades. That proves my logic. I said that when the first Constitution amendment came in 1951 why it was not brought at that time. Why article 45 is not implemented till today in toto where we can educate our entire population?


SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: We are duty bound to do that. (Interruption) You first accept that in the last 56 years you have not done this thing, and then you proceed.

SHRI K. KESHAVA RAO: I express..(Interruption). I think if I were to be right in my own expression, then I should have gone to your mind first. If we have followed the 1951 amendment, there was no need for this amendment today. That is my feeling and that is my stand on it. In 1951, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru brought clause 4 to Article 15. It ensures that any one who is socially and educationally backward could as well be brought in to this line. That is what I said. For six decades, we have been waiting for it.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: That was my logic.

SHRI K. KESHAVA RAO: That should not make Mr. Ahluwalia to say: Is it to divide the society? It is not to divide the society. It is an inclusive polity to which we are committed. It is an effort to bring all the people who are being thrown out, who are not even looked at all, whose tears cannot be seen by our eyes, and whose voice cannot reach you.

Sir, today, the Tribal Bill is coming in the afternoon. There are 3.8 per cent of the people living in those areas whom you have not seen. It is not motorable at all. And here, we come to power, and pass legislations in their name too. That is what exactly the conditions of the OBC today. We must understand this. I am not going to take much time. I would only say there are three questions before us today. One, I say this was long overdue Bill. This is something which should have come before us much earlier. This should have really strengthened the polity. When I say this only strengthens the egalitarian polity, I would say that you have raised three questions. One is: Do these quotas rectify inequalities and what is the global experience? Sir, with some kind of experience and with some kind of authority and having been a Member of many Committees, which have been looking into these issues, including the OBC Committee, let me tell you one thing. If you look into the NCERT Reports or almost all other reports in the country on the subject, if you look into South Africa or any report in America, you will find that they vouchsafe for the fact that the inclusiveness and trying to take the minority along will strengthen the quality of life, quality of education, and quality of the polity. I am not trying to quote from record. I have many things to tell you but constraint of time prevents me. But what I am trying to say with all possible emphasis is this.

(Contd. by VKK/U)


SHRI K. KESHAVA RAO (CONTD.): That having placed, having promised to bring some kind of an egalitarian society of inclusiveness, we need to look into these issues from a broader perspective. Why exactly I am hurt today is because having passed a unanimous constitutional amendment in this very House, months back, having expressed the will of the people of the sovereign through this House, we had to delay this measure. We had to delay the introduction of this Bill only because some people were shouting and dancing in the streets against the Bill. Whether there were 'event managers' who were managing them or whether they were mere 25 or 100 people -- I don't know, but, they were young misguided people for whom we had to come back to this House, delaying the process. Sir, don't you think, today, I have a right to ask in the House: If you are thinking to stagger or phase the twenty-seven per cent reservation that you had promised to us, is it not necessary that such phasing can take place for the people who are already in the institutions? Give us a chance first so that we can be brought in first and they can come later. It is not thought of because nobody cries on our behalf; nobody shouts on our behalf. Only we cry, but that cry does not reach you. As Bhandary Saheb very rightly said, it is not about merely opening the gate. I am reminded of a great speech of Lyndon Johnson, which laid the foundation for affirmative action in America. He said that after unchaining a slave after sixty years, if you bring him to the starting line of a race and say: "You are free and join the race"; and ask him to run and open the gates -- Johnson said, opening the gate is not enough. Make him able to walk out of the gate is more necessary than opening the gates. It is not simply the legislation. I want the psyche of this legislation to be understood; what exactly you are thinking. It is very true that we could not have reached to education at all. Sir, in a country where we could not have even touched the books, four thousand years back, you expect us to compete with them, who are privileged. Still, we are competing; we are successful. Thanks to amendment to the Constitution and later legislations or measures or liberal attitude, that helped the situation to change.

Now, I come to 'merit'. What exactly is the merit, that you are all drumming about? Is it the examination -- a merit that you are talking about? Or is it the knowledge or is it some kind of my passing out of a test? I will talk about two-three things. If it is examinations, let me tell you; I am an academic myself. Thirty-three lakh people appear for four thousand seats in IITs. What do you think an examiner will look into the papers? Just imagine how would he look into the papers! There have been lot of deliberations on the type of examinations that we have. It is only luck that if questions that you know come in the question paper on that particular day and you are able to answer them, you get first class. Having the expertise of a subject that you have studied -- if those questions do not appear, you are gone. The examination system has always fraught with these dangers and affect our standards. So, examinations do no give correct assessment and merit.

Now, coming to the Knowledge Commission. Let the communication and information experts come and tell us that information and communication are all that make knowledge. Let my friend, Mr. Pitroda, know, without any disrespect to him, as a good friend of his, let me tell him that information and communication are only a tool to

knowledge and not the knowledge per se. His friend, Nandon, must also understand that it is wrong to say that if these two things are lacking, the knowledge does not exist. In the traditional India, various artisans have been looked upon in high esteem all through the history, because of their traditional knowledge -- the artisan knowledge. They sustained the country through their knowledge. So, let us not mix up knowledge here with mere information.

Now, Sir, the third point about merit. Sir, today, one is seeking an entry into a school or college. A cut-off mark is already there. I have to have 55 per cent of marks to apply for an admission. Other man might have got 98 per cent. How he got 98 per cent and how I got 55 is already explained. I will tell you. Go and ask the examiner about the conditions of examination, in a village school or a high school. Having obtained the cut-off marks, if both of us are applying for admission, you give me a chance (Time-bell) and give me training for five years, I will prove worthy. What do I do if I am pursuing an MBBS course? Both of us are answering the same question paper; both of us are writing on the same answer book; both of us are using the same kind of pen; and both of us are using the same room. (Contd. by RSS/2w)


SHRI K.KESHAVA RAO (CONTD.): Both of us are using the same desk. How I started and how I went, is another question. This will take you to a very interesting thing, Sir. In the engineering courses in the Tamil Nadu and Andhra universities, I will just give you a figure about Computer Engineering. The OC candidate got 97 per cent marks, the BC got 96 per cent marks and the MBC got 93 per cent marks. The figures run like that. Again, in Electronics, a candidate from the OC got 97 per cent marks, the BC got 96 per cent marks and the MBC got 92 per cent marks. In Electrical Engineering, they got 95 per cent, 95 per cent and 91 percent marks.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Mr. Keshava, you have already taken 14 minutes. There are 4 more speakers from your party.

SHRI K.KESHAVA RAO: If you want me to sit down, I will sit down.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please try to conclude.

SHRI K. KESHAVA RAO: One question is, having crossed the merit barrier, let us come to what exactly you are thinking of the money. Everybody is trying to say the kind of expansion they are now envisaging through this Bill. Somebody says, it is Rs. 4,000 crores or Rs. 8,000 crores or 20,000 crores or 40,000 crores. Whatever it is, if IITs were to get Rs. 40,000 crores to expand their higher education only in the name that some Bill is coming in, that Rs. 80,000 crores are going to the OBCs to have special courses, I will try to remind Ahluwaliaji what Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru had said because he has referred to Pt. Nehru's words

in those days when he moved that amendment, clause 4 to article 50. He said: They need more special concessions. This money could have gone or, at least, now, since you have already thought of this, try to think of equal amount, and some kind of adequate amount goes to a scheme which Members here have been asking for the children for the primary and secondary education. Sir, all that we need is, give us a good beginning, give us some training too, some facilities that you think you are entitled to, and you immediately think 'I am not entitled to'.

Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I submit a last word. Today, everybody knows that a Bill is before us; everybody knows that a Bill has been passed by the Lok Sabha, yet the agitation goes on. For what? Their seats are protected, their position is protected, their very schooling is protected, yet they are agitating and they are in the streets. Why? It is because they do not want these sections to come and join the institutions like that. This mindset, this psyche, need to be fought. This Bill is not just giving me an admission to IIT, and today, I am taking the coloured papers to get me the admission, whether it is UPSC or IIT. IIT Ahmedabad still has coloured examination admission papers to give. My son, when he went to join that institute, I asked him not to join that institute. I said, better do any engineering. He has done it after having qualified it. This kind of humiliation should not be there. That is what I am saying. Effacing the human spirit or getting subjected to this kind of hostilities will not do. Since the UPA Government, is committed as it is, to the upliftment of the poor in all walks of life, particularly education, let us join as Members of Parliament, as representatives of people, as people ourselves, as citizens, to see that the spirit of inclusiveness, the spirit of human fraternity which we have enshrined in the Constitution really shines. Thank you. (Ends)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Mr. Gandhi Azad. Please be brief. Actually, your time is only 4 minutes. If you can limit your speech within that time, I will be grateful.

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THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): Thank you very much, Mr. Gandhi Azad, for confining to the time. Mr. Ravula Chandra Sekar Reddy. Your time is also four minutes. Please try to finish within four minutes. (Followed by VK/2Y)


SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY (ANDHRA PRADESH): I will try, provided the House cooperates.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I will ensure that.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I rise to support this Bill. This Bill provides reservation to the backward classes; whereas our Constitution provides reservation to the socially and educationally backward classes. My party is committed for the uplift of weaker sections, more particularly of SCs, STs and backward classes. This Bill provides reservation in Central educational institutions to the extent of 15 per cent for Scheduled Castes, 7.5 per cent for Scheduled Tribes and 27 per cent for OBCs. As a matter of fact, reservation to OBCs has already been provided in my State. When my leader, Shri N.T. Rama Rao was the Chief Minister in Andhra Pradesh, he not only provided reservation to the backward classes in educational institutions, but also in the local body elections for the first time in the country. No other State has provided reservation for OBCs in the local bodies in the country. For the first time, my leader late N.T. Rama Rao, did it in Andhra Pradesh.

Sir, the enactment of law is one thing, but its implementation is the most important thing. I would like to know from the hon. Minister: "You are getting this legislation passed, but what will happen to its implementation?" Last week, in Andhra Pradesh, in an incident nearly 100 students belonging to the Left Party were beaten up very badly. They were demanding...

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: We are always beaten up.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: But still you are supporting them. They were beaten up very badly for the simple reason that they were demanding scholarships. On the one hand, you have come forward with this legislation and on the other hand you are not providing the required facilities to them.


SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Do you want to communicate through beatings? (Interruptions).

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please address the Chair.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Sir, he is a Minister. He should be ashamed that students were beaten up in Andhra Pradesh for scholarship.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please address the Chair.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: He wants to champion the cause of... (Interruptions).

SHRI V. HANUMANTHA RAO: Sir, I myself have condemned this incident. (Interruptions).

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Sir, I appreciate that he has condemned this incident. But the hon. Minister says, "There was lack of communication". He wants to communicate with the people through beatings.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, the hon. Member should speak on the subject. He should not deviate.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Sir, it is definitely part of the Bill. (Interruptions).

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You say what you want to say. Don't look at them. You address the Chair. Don't react to them.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: I am not deviating. The Bill provides reservation to the OBCs in Central educational institutions. What is the intention of the Government to strengthen them? Sir, there is a provision for providing money to the States to give scholarships to OBCs. What has happened to that money? They are diverting this money to some other schemes. We raised this issue in the Assembly. We raised it on different platforms. But the Government is not responding to that. The welfare programmes have gone to the winds in Andhra Pradesh. (Interruptions).

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Don't try to rake up this issue.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Sir, I am willing to share the information.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): They don't want to say anything. You make your point. (Interruptions). Mr. Narayanasamy, please sit down. You can reply when your chance comes.

SHRI V. HANUMANTHA RAO: Sir, there are a lot of other issues. Why is he deviating from the subject?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You can reply when your chance comes.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: I request them to take action against the erring people. Now I would like to quote some statistics.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You address the Chair. Don't address them.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Sir, they are diverting my attention. I get inspiration from them.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Don't get diverted. Please don't divert his attention.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: In 2005-05, 3,30,650 OBC students applied for scholarships and the Government of Andhra Pradesh sanctioned 16,275 scholarships. (Contd. by 2Z)


SHRI K. KESHAVA RAO: Sir, I am on a point of order...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Under what rule?(Interruptions) You quote the rule...(Interruptions) You are within your right to raise a point of order, but under what rule?(Interruptions)

SHRI K. KESHAVA RAO: Not quoting the rule does not take away my right to intervention...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: If you want to raise a point of order, then, you should quote the rule...(Interruptions)

SHRI K. KESHAVA RAO: If he is quoting some figures, he must inform the House whether he is quoting it rightly or not.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): You have made your point. Now, sit down. And, that is not a point of order. Mr. Reddy, please address the Chair and try to conclude. You speak on the Bill, and please don't get distracted.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Sir, this is a part of the Bill.

What is the intention of the Government in bringing forward this Bill? The number of scholarship given to students was 16,275, and the number of pending applications is 3,14,375...(Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Why are you getting distracted? You address the Chair. You are unnecessarily inviting trouble. Don't do that. There is no time. That is what I am worried about. The Bill has to be passed by 4.00 p.m.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Sir, being the PCC President, I thought he might advise his own Government. Instead of beating the people and shooting at the students, let them be provided with scholarships. This year, only 4.92 per cent of the students were given scholarship, and you try to claim that you are the champion of OBCs! Is it an achievement after about 60 years of independence? They are in Government both at the Centre and in the States. I demand that there should be an inquiry about the diversion of funds meant for OBC, SC and ST students. The money is being diverted to some other programmes, and they are taking commissions out of the funds so diverted...(Interruptions) I do stand by the figures...(Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat...(Interruptions) Mr. Reddy, your time is over. You have already taken eight minutes.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Take out the time of interruptions...(Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Mr. Ravula Chandra Sekar, issues concerning States would be raised by the MLAs in the State Assembly...(Interruptions) You kindly listen to me...(Interruptions) Your time was for four minutes, and you have already taken eight minutes...(Interruptions) You are a senior leader, and don't behave like this.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: The Government of India is providing funds to the State Government, but they are diverting the funds. I demand that there should be an inquiry into it. I also demand that there should be an evaluation of programmes sponsored and financed by the Government of India. This fund is being diverted for some ulterior motives. This is my allegation.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Now, take your seat. Your time is over. You have already taken eight minutes instead of four minutes.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Sir, take out the time of interruptions.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Okay, one minute more.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: This is not the case of this year alone. Last year also, they gave scholarship to only 11.24 per cent of the OBC students. Is it an achievement? For this, the Members of that side are praising the Minister. I am unable to understand this. Students are agitating on the streets; they call on the CPI (M) for their support. Last Friday, the students, supported by the CPI (M), were beaten badly, and they were admitted into hospitals. And you make loud speeches here appreciating the Minister as if everything has been done. Certain things have been done only on paper, but they have not been implemented in practice.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Now, please conclude.

SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: I request the hon. Minister to see to it that the funds are properly utilised, and it reaches the targeted people. With these words, I conclude. (Ends) (Followed by 3A)