SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): Sir, having said this much about augmenting the forces and all those things, I come to another important issue which is very rightly pointed out by hon. Members. The Union Government has its intelligence agencies at the national level which collect and share the information with the States. However, the machinery at the State level for this purpose is not very strong and effective. It has, therefore, become necessary to strengthen it at the local district and at the State levels. The people can help a great deal in this. The State Governments are asked to pay more attention to this aspect and obtain 'actionable intelligence' on a larger scale. Without strengthening the capability of the State in this respect, taking effective action against the terrorists is not going to be easy. This realisation is conveyed very emphatically to the Governments which are asked to use modern technologies and more manpower for this purpose. I am not complaining even against the State Governments, because their areas of duties have increased. The number of laws we are passing in Parliament and in the States is increasing, providing penal actions to be taken against the culprits. The law and order maintaining machinery is not equal to the demand which is made on them, and the manpower with them, as I have already said, is also not sufficient. And that is why, in the past, the intelligence used to be collected by the Kotwal in the village. He was not a Police Officer; but the Kotwal had the duty to collect the information and give it to the Police party at the Police Station. Now, the Police was also asked to do that duty, but the Police also is not finding it possible to do it. The special agencies with the State Governments are also not in a position to collect the necessary information. So, when the broad outline of things which are going to happen are known to them, the 'actionable information' is not available. And this 'actionable information' cannot be given by the agencies like the Director of the Intelligence of the Defence Ministry or the RAW or the IB. It has to be collected by the State Governments through their agencies. We are requesting them to use more manpower, to use more technologies, to use modern gadgets in order to collect this information. Collecting this information is not going to be sufficient. That has to be collated, analysed, and acted upon in time. Only then, it can happen. In my opinion, the most sophisticated weapons that the States have, even the most advanced States have, will not be an answer to the activities of the terrorists anywhere in the world. Only useful reply to this menace is collecting 'actionable intelligence' in time and acting on it. I think one of the hon. Members made this point very emphatically and correctly, and I am hundred per cent with him on this point.

Now, the third thing, which has been pointed out by the Members, is that our system should change. Now, the hon. Member was saying that, "Look, you are looking at the incidents and you are looking at some small things which come before us. But have you paid attention in a holistic manner to the system that is being followed by the Government of India and the State Governments?" I do think that this is a very, very relevant point. I don't remember who made this point. But one of the Members made this point. Maybe the lady Member made this point. And this is a very, very relevant point. It is necessary for us to look at this problem in a holistic manner. Only then it will be possible for us to deal with this problem -- and we are at it. We are looking at strengthening the Police machinery. We are looking at strengthening the intelligence collecting apparatus of the Government of India and the State Governments at the district level, and at the local level also. We are looking at the problems faced by the forces in communicating with each other, in transport facilities which are given to them, and in the area of morale-building. (Contd. by VKK/4F)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): Now, we are thinking of insuring all the policemen in the country so that if something happens to them, they should be given the help and the compensation. And this has to be done at the police level. We are also thinking in terms of bringing about the cooperation among the States. Many times now, it is discussed, it is said that where is the machinery for cooperation and coordination between the State and the Government. I would like to say that the Constitution itself provides for that kind of machinery -- the three Lists given in the Constitution give a framework within which the cooperation between the Union Government and the State Governments becomes possible. The second is, we have created NIC where the State Chief Ministers and other leaders sit together and bring about the coordination. Then, there is a system of regional councils -- Eastern Council, Western Council, Southern Council and all council. There, they sit and decide the thing. Then, there is a Committee headed by the Home Minister of India and attended by the Chief Ministers of the States who occasionally meet. Then, there is a Committee which is headed by the Home Secretary and attended by the Chief Secretaries of the States. Then, there is another Committee which is headed by the Special Secretary (Internal Security) which is attended by the DIGs and other officers, and through these organisations, we bring about the coordination. Wherever the military, the paramilitary forces and the State police are functioning, there we have created a system which is called the Unified Command System which is chaired by the Chief Minister of that State and that system is also bringing about the coordination between the Army, the paramilitary forces and the State police.

Sir, I would like to say that as far as the Government of India and the State Governments are concerned, one of the most important things which can affect the entire system in the country is being done is this. In Government of India, we have been discussing that economic development is important, the defence of the country is important; in the same manner internal security is also important. We are spending enough funds on economic development and on the defence in the country, but, probably, in the last so many years, it has not been possible for us to pay enough attention to matters relating to the internal security and it has become necessary to pay more attention to these aspects and provide more funds in the Budgets. I have been talking to the Chief Ministers and asking them to provide more funds. Fortunately, for us, the Mover of this discussion, Mr. Manohar Joshi, knows it personally that as a Government, we have not been paying probably as much attention as we should have paid to the matters relating to internal security. Defence, yes; economic development, yes; but, internal security needs more attention and this attitude is developing and it is going to help us.

Now, it is also suggested that there should be a federal crime and the federal force. Well, this is a very, very tricky issue and I would not like to say anything more than this that this issue has been discussed by many Governments and it has not been possible for them to evolve a consensus as to what should be done in this matter. But, if it is done, it can help; but if it is not done, we will be able to manage, maybe not as efficiently as we could have done with this kind of system. And yet, the consensus on this point is more important than just having this system provided by amending the Constitution and things like that. Without the consensus developed between the States and the Union Government, doing something in this respect is going to be very difficult and we may not be able to achieve much. (Contd. by MKS/4g)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): Sir, one of the things which is asked--and Murli Manohar Joshiji made a reference to it--is what is likely to happen in the future. This is really something which is bothering the people who are paying attention to this aspect. There was a time when the terrorist activities were carried on with the knives, axes, stones and spades. Then, they started using guns and pistols, and later on, they started using AK-47 and things like that. Now, they are using the grenades, the land mines, the missiles and things like that. We have instances, in some parts of the world, which have come to our notice in which the chemical agents and the biological agents were used. And they were talking of the dirty bomb and the radiological weapons! And if this is escalated to that level, managing terrorism not only in India but throughout the world is going to be very, very challenging, and if we do not prepare ourselves to meet those kinds of challenges, to cope up with those kinds of problems before the time they arise, it would be very difficult to do anything on that point. Unfortunately, when we pay attention to small things, we do miss these kinds of very important issues which are likely to come before us not immediately but after some time, and when that time arises, and if we are not ready, then it will be very, very difficult. We are looking at these problems also, and we hope that we would be able to manage this thing.

Sometimes, we are asked what is being done to bring about cooperation between the States and between the countries in the world. For the information of this hon. House, I would like to say that we have created 24 Joint Working Groups with 24 countries in the world. These Joint Working Groups are talking to each other as to how these terrorist activities can be controlled. We have entered into agreements for mutual, legal assistance. We have entered into treaties with 19 countries in the world, and those 19 countries are helping us. We have entered into an agreement for extradition with 28 countries in the world. With Pakistan, Nepal, Myanmar and Bangladesh, we have the Home Secretaries-level Committees talking to each other once in a year. Now, these are the things which we are doing. We are talking with the international organisations, the United Nations and other countries also to bring about coordination, and in the international conferences what we are projecting is this. We are appealing to the people in the world to agree on certain things. One of the things on which we have made an appeal is, don't provide safe haven facilities to the terrorists. If any terrorist is going from one country to another, the other country should not provide safe haven facilities to him. The second thing which we are saying is, don't allow the free flow of funds from one country to another where the terrorists are likely to use or are going to use that kind of funds. And the third thing which we are saying is that if you have the intelligence, share this intelligence with all concerned countries so that the terrorist activities can be controlled.

And the fourth thing on which there is no agreement between the countries of the world is this. We have been saying that the terrorism has become very terrific today because of the availability of small sophisticated weapons to the terrorists, which are easily available to non-licenceholders also in bulk and at the prices which are affordable to them. If this is stopped, the terrorism will be controlled to a great extent. But on this, the countries of the world are saying, 'this is an economic issue; we can't do it; this principle is not applied in our country, and all those things. And yet, we are trying to make this point.

(Followed by TMV/4H)


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the hon. Minister has given his speech for such a long time. But the reply is not on the points that we have raised. The debate was raised by me in order to get solace to the Mumbaikars particularly. After the incidents, the people are really in fear, and they were expecting that there would be an assurance from the hon. Minister on safety and security of the people of Mumbai. Unfortunately, he is not coming forth on that issue. Another issue which is being discussed and raised is the Prime Minister's statement that about four months ago the Government of Maharashtra was informed about it. The anxiety in our mind is: How was it informed by the Prime Minister and what was the action taken by the State Government? Sir, it is very unfortunate that these important issues are not being replied to and some theoretical reply is going on in the House for a long time. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He has not concluded. He may come to that. (Interruptions)...

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ָ, ־ ә ֵօ

֮ : ־ ә ֵ , ָ ֟ ..(־֮֬)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He is talking about strengthening of the security system. (Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: I requested him. (Interruptions)... If the hon. Minister remembers, I told him, "don't worry; go honestly to the points".

(Interruptions)... He is raising a question that... (Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: They don't want to listen to the hon. Home Minister.... (Interruptions)....

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: I told him about the appeasement also. (Interruptions)...

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, if you ask us, we will sit down. But for the last one-and-a-half hours we have been told every thing except on what happened in Mumbai. (Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: He is not talking about Mumbai City at all. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He wants to talk about the security system. (Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: I am not interested in listening to theoretical speeches. (Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I thought that my colleague and friend is not only thinking of Mumbai--certainly Mumbai is at the core of his heart--but also the terrorist activities in the country. ... (Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: But the city is Mumbai. (Interruptions)... I expected that he would say it. (Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will try to satisfy him also. (Interruptions)... Having said this much, I will come to the Mumbai problems which I thought that I had explained in the written statement given to the House and, probably, he had read it and it was unnecessary for me to say them. I would like to inform this House that the Government of Maharashtra has given a compensation of Rs.1 lakh to the family members of the persons who had died. (Interruptions)... They have also said that medical treatment shall be given free of cost to all those people who are injured. (Interruptions)...

֮ : ָ, Ͽ ָ ֟ ? ..(־֮֬)... He should have read the discussion in the House. (Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : ӡ ֌ , I will allow you clarifications.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, he has asked a simple question. The simple question is that the Government of Maharahstra was informed... (Interruptions)... about the possibility of ... (Interruptions)... terrorist activities. (Interruptions)...

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ָ ֤ פ, ָ֮ ״ֻ֮ ֤ ? Ӳև ִ Ù ׻֋ ? ָ ֤ פ, ׻ֵ ֮ ..(־֮֬)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: He is not giving the list of the accused persons. (Interruptions)... He is avoiding to reply to the questions because he is not able to reply. (Interruptions)....

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister has not yet concluded. After that I will allow you clarifications. (Interruptions)...

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ָ, ָ֮ ֈ

(At this stage some hon. Members left the Chamber.)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: We don't want to listen to the Minister. We are walking out in protest. (Interruptions)...


(At this stage some hon. Members left the Chamber.)


SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: If you want to walk out, you walk out. (Interruptions)...

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ֟ פ ֮ , ֮ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ Ӳև ִ Ù ָ ָ ֯ ֮ ֵ֟ , ָ ־֮Դ Ӳև ִ Ù ָ ָ֮ ӟִ֕ ߅ ֯ ִ ִ ָ ֵ֟

׿־ָ֕ . י : ߴ֮, ֮ օ ..(־֮֬).. ָ, Ӳև ׻֋ ָ™ ָָ ֮ ־ ״׮Ù ֣ ֲ ָ , ־ ״׮Ù ֵ ӓ ֋ ״ֻ פ ֋, ו ״ֻ ֤ ֤ ׻֋ ӓ ֋ ָ ָ ֤ ־ ӡ ־ֻ ֵ ӓ ֵ -׿ֵ ׮ִֵ ײ ָ ? ־ ״׮Ù ָ פ ӛÙ؛ , ӓ ֋ ֤ ״ֻ֮ ֻ , -׿ֵ ָ ״ֻ֮ ֻ ָ ֱ ״ֻ֮ ֻ ݕꌙ , ֤ ָ ֟ ֮ ֲ ֵ֟, ߲-߲ ֋ - ֤ ׻֋ ߅ ָ ֣ ֻ ֋ , ֋, ֟ , ֲ ֵ֤ ׻֋ כ ֕ ֵօ ֲ ִ֟ ָ ֮ ָ Ͽ , ׻֋ ֻ ֋ 4/ ָ


׿־ָ֕ 0 י (֟) : ָ ֟ , ֟ , ָ֕ ֟ ֮֟ ֟ ָ ֤ ֤ և פ ָָ ֮ ײ, ײ, ָ ׮ֻ פ ֋օ ָ ֋? ָ ֤, ָָ ָ ׮֮ ֛, ָ ֤ ֮֟ Ù ־֮Դ ׻֋ ׸Ù ״ֻߕ , ו֮ ָ ָ ֤ , ו֮֟ ׾֬ ׻֋ , ϵ ֤ ֙ ָ ׮ֻ֮ ־ֻ , ֟ ׻֋ ֺ , ֺ

ϟ֯ : ָ ׸ָ ֤ ֋ ִõ֋ ֋߅

׿־ָ֕ 0 י : ߠ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ։

׿־ָ֕ 0 י : ӡ פ פ ו ָ ֤ ָ ֵ , ꅠ ָ Ù פ Ù - Ù Ù ֤ ꅠ ֤ , , ו ָ ֤ , ꅠ ָ , ָָ Ù ־֮Դ ׸Ù , ־ ӡ ׸Ù , ӡ ֲ ״ֻ ִ ֤ ꅠ ֤ ֕׸ ֤ ֺ , ֤ ו֮ ֮ , ֺ ֤

㴲և ׻֋, 㴲և ֮֜ ׻֋ ֺ , ָ ֓ 㴲և ףֵ ָ ߅ ֮ ֮ , ׸ ָ ֻ ׿ֿ , ׿ֿ , ו֮֟ , ֮ ֮ ָ ָ ßֻ ׻֋ ӌֵָ

ִ֟ ֲ ֙ֆ ָ ֓ ׿ ֙ ו֮ , ֱֻ ֮ ֵ֕, ָ ֱֻ ֮ ָ ָ ִ֮ ָ , ו֮ , ײֻ ֟ ֣ , և ֋ ֮ ֟ ֋օ ֟ օ ָ ָ ֣ ֻ ֋, ֤ ֋ ׻֋ ֟ , ָ ֯ - ֮֯ ߲-߲ ־ ә ֓ ־ֲ օ (ִ֯)

ִ ִ֕ : ֛ ׾ִ֮ϟ ֣ ֯ ָ ֋ , ָָ ֮֮ ֌׸ ӟִ֕ , ָ ֤ 㴲և ֟ 2:00 ֕ ֮ פ ָ ֮, ־ ֯ ֯ ֯ ׮֤ -־ ֯ և, פֳָ ӌֵָ ו֋ פ ֟ ִ ו֋, ָ ֟ ֮ , Ӥ

ָ ׻ ֲ֤ß ִ ָ ָ ִ ֻ , ָ ֛ -ִ 㴲և ߻ ִ և פ ֤ ׻ֵ ֋ ߻ ׌ ? ֻ? ֮֮ ׻֋ ָָ ?

ֺ ߕ ָ ֮ ָ߲ ֤, ו ֮ ׻֋ ֌ , פ ֮ ׸ ֲ֤ß ׻ֵ ֟ ߮-߮ ֻ ָ ֟ , ׻־ֻ ֱֻ ָָ , ֮- ? ָ ָָ ֯ ָ , ִ ֟ , ָ߲ ֤ ֋? ׻֋ ָָ ֙י ־ã ָ ָ߲ ֤ ֤ ֟ ߮-߮ ֻ , ֱֻ ״ֻ֟ ֟ , ױ ׻־ֻ ֱֻ ָָ ָև ('4k/sch' ָ ָ)


ִ ̴֕ (֟): ָ, ָ ߕ ֚ ִ ֛, ֓֟ ָ, ӡ ׻֋ ֯ ־֕ פ־և, ֱ ֮֓ , ߕ ָ 韵 ӡ Ӥ ߕ ֮֮ (ִ֯)

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: Sir, he mentioned about America being a great country. Great countries and great leaders are not made. Sir, today I am reminded of Shrimati Indira Gandhi; she was one of the great leaders of the century, not only of India but also of the world. Please don't take it personally. If she had been here today, she would have sent a strong message to the world at large. I saw the National Security Adviser on television yesterday. He looked concerned; he looked serious; and he looked sincere. He said, "This is a tip of the iceberg." We are talking about the statements of the hon. Prime Minister of India. He is not a Mamuli Aadmi. He says that it is from across the border.

Then, you mentioned about Nirmalaji's speech many times; I also liked her speech. But the Prime Minister of India goes and says, "America is asking for proof". When America's 9/11 happened, the world never asked for any proof. The National Security Adviser, yesterday, on television says that we have more proofs of these incidents from across the border than America ever had for Osama bin Laden. Sir, please give a strong message. Dialogue is very good. We are with the dialogue. If that was not true, then, why have you stopped the dialogue? Lastly, Sir, I talked about the crimininalisation issue as well.

֮ ֮ ̴֕: ָ, ֱ ֟ ֮ ֟ ֕߸ ̻ ֮ ָ פ־ֵ ֲ ָ ָ׸ , ָ - ֟ , - ָָ ׻ֵ ֟ ָָ ֟ ֻ û ׸ ָ ֺ ו֮֟ ָָ ֟ , ָ ָ ׸ 녠 ָ ֮ ׻̴ ֵ֟ ָָ ֟ , ֲ ֻ֟ ײ֟ ֟, ֲ ָ ׸ Ӕ ֵ օ

ָ, ֛ ӳ߸ ֟ , ֲָ ֮ և , ִ ̴֕ ߻ ֮ ֋֮ ֟ ֵ פ ֤ ׻ֵ ֋օ ָ, ִ ß ֮ ֱև ׻֋ - ֱ̻ ָ ֻ , ß -ָ ? ֻֻ ֟ ֮ ֱ ™ ו֮ ָ ָ ִ֟ ָ , ֻ֟ ֮ ײ֟

ָ : ֤ߵ ӡ Ͽ ֕ ָ ֛ ֯ ֻ , ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ֛ ֯ Ͽ ֵ ֤֟ ׾ֹ ׾ ϴ ֲ ִ-߸ ׾֮֬-ֳ ָ ֻ , ֲ ָ ־֕ և ߅ פ ָ ֻ , ִ-߸ ֻ ָ ֻ ֻ "Attack on government facilities" ֵ օ ֻ ִ ׻֋ ָ օ ָ ٙױ ؓ֟ ָ ֟֋? ֲ ֻֿ ֤ ֵ -׌ ֵԾ ? ָ ߔ ٙױ ߔ ֟ ? ִֻ , ׌ֵָ ִֻ , ָ ӟ׸ ִֻ , ֮֮ ֲ ָ ײػ ָ , ָ ֵԾ , ֮֮ ָ ֻ , Ը, Ը֮ ׮ß֮ ָ ָ ֲ , ֻ ָ ָ ָ ָ ֟ ֯ ֲ և, ֤ ꅠ ãן ׮֯֙ ׻֋ ִ ? 4L/MCM ָ


ϟ֯ (ָ Ϥ) : ֮־֤ ָ, ־ֻ ו ָ ָ ֤ߵ ׮ִԻ ß֮ ֟֓ߟ ϳ׾֟ ׸Ù ֤ ָ ß֮ ß֮ ӲӬ ֲָ , ֤ օ ֟ ָ և ׾ָ֓ ֮ ָ ֤ ֟֓ߟ Ӥ ֣ ׮ֵ ן ß ָ ß֮ ß֮ ֜ ֟ Ӥ ָ, ß֮ ûִ ׸ָ ו և ׸ָ ß֮ ꅠ ׻֋ ָ ֟֓ߟ ָ ׸Ù ֟ ֮ ׻֋ ֙ , ָ֕ ֋ ׮־ (ִ֯)

׿־ָ֕ 0 י : ߴ֮, ֲ ָ ־ֻ ֟ օ ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ײֻ ֟ ֕׸ ָָ ָ ֲ ֛ ֤ ֮ , , ֲֻ֟ ו ִ ׻֋ ֟־֤ ֟֓ߟ , - ִ֟ ߓ ֛ ֋ ֟ ײ֛ ֋, ֺ ֮ ֯ ֵ ָ ןֿ֟ , ß ֮ ꅠ

־ֻ , , ꅠ , ֛ ִϟ ָ ָָ ִ֟ ֤ ִ ֵ ִ , ן ָ ָ וִָ ֮֟ , ָ-ָ ֟ , ָ ֤ ֔ , ֟ ֻ֟ ֋, ָ ֮ ֛ ֤ ֤ ֯ ֔ , ֕ , ָ ִ ֮ ָָ , וִ 5-7 ָָ 㴲և ֻ ָָ , ָ ָָ ֣ ߱ ֮ ָָ ֤ ָ ֯ ֤ 㴲և ײָ , ײָ ׻֋ ߱ ָ ֻ֟ ֋ ָ .....(־֮֬)

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : - - כ, - ְ ו֋ ָ ְ ֤ ײ֟ ִ֕ ֟ ״ֻ֮ , ׻֋ ָ ֛ ִ֕ ָ ָ֮ ָ ߮

׿־ָ֕ 0 י : ֮ ֛ ֤ ֤ 5-7 ֱ Ù ֤ ָ ׿ֵ֟ ָ ֯ , օ ׻֋ ָ ϕ ֮ ֛ ָ ָ ָ......(־֮֬) ֯ ֮ , ֟ ֯ ָ ו֋

ֳ֯ן : ֮ ו֋, ׻֋

׿־ָ֕ 0 י : ֮ ֛ ֤ ֤ 5-7 ֤ , ֮֟ ֛ ׿ ֟ ִ ׻ כև ֋, ָָ כև ֋ , ָ ֯ , ָ ֣ ִ ֕ , ָ ֯ ֟ ײֻ ָ ִ ֤ ֺ ָ™ ָָ Ù֮ Ӥ ֤ ָ ֤ և ׻֟ ֮֯ ָ ִ֮ , ֮֮ , ֋օ (4M ָ ֿ:)


׿־ָ֕ .י (֟) : ָ ֟ ָ ֯ ָ ֯ ָ ֋, ָ ֋, ָָ ָ ֋ ָ ֯ ֮ ֮ ֛օ ֮ ֤ פ , ֮ ׻֋ , ֻ ׻֋ ֯ ֮ ֮ ֺ ָ ָ և , ָ ָ և , ָ ִ֟ և ֯ ָ ָ ו֋ ָ ו֋ ִ ֮ ֌ ׾־ ר ߱ , , - ׿ֿ ߱ ָ ֯ ָ , ָ ָ ָ , ָ ָ ָ ߴև ֋, ָָ ߴև ֋, օ ׻֋ ֯ և, ָ ָ ו֋ ָ ֟ ׻֋ ָ ֟ ֺ ֯ ֟ ָ ֮ פ ֋օ ָ ֯ ֮֟ ִ ֤ - ֻ֟ , ָ֬ ָ ֟ ֯ ָ ֤ ֻ֟ , ֤ ָ ..(־֮֬)..

ִ ̴֕ : ָ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ֟ ו֋օ ֯ ׻ ו֋օ

׿־ָ֕ .י : ֺ օ , ׻֟ ֯ ו֋, ָ , ֯ substantiate ֛..(־֮֬)..

ִ ̴֕ : ֟ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ׻֟ ו֋..(־֮֬).. , օ ̴֕ , ..(־֮֬)..

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ״֮֙ օ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : פ ֯ ׻֟ , ֮ ..(־֮֬)..

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ֈ ָ ֲֻ֟ ? ֈ ֟ , ֮ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ֟ ֤ ..(־֮֬)..ָ ֤ ֋ ӓ ָ ֤״ֵ ֯ և ..(־֮֬)..

׿־ָ֕ .י : ֋ , ֮ , ׻ ֮ , ֻ֟ ו֋..(־֮֬)..

ִ ̴֕ : ָ, ֯ ׻ օ

ָ : ָ ֯ ׻ ..(־֮֬).. ׬ָ , , ֯ ֲ ׻ ו֋ ..(־֮֬)..

׿־ָ֕ .י : ֯ , ֯ ִ֮ߵ ֤õ , ֯ ֟ , , ֯ ׻֟ ׻ ֮ , , substantiate ֛, ׻ ֯ ֻ֟ , substantiate ֛ ָ , ֲ ֵ ֲ ֤֟ ֮֜ ִ ֋օ ֮ ߕ, ָ ָ ֟ և ָ ִ֮ߵ ֤õ , ֛ ִϟ ֯ ֮ ֮ և ״׮Ù , և ״׮Ù , , , , ֻ֟ , ײ֮ ״׮Ù, ׸֟ , ֟ ֻ֟

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: The whole world watched it. (Interruptions)

׿־ָ֕ .י : օ ..(־֮֬).. օ ֯ , և ״׮Ù ה, ־ֲ (Interruptions)

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: I am sorry, Sir, if you tell me that this is not in the interest of the country, I promise you, I will sit down. I appreciate that. (Interruptions) The whole world has heard this what the Prime Minister has said in Mumbai. If you tell me that I do not know what the Prime Minister has said, then, it is a very sad affair that we do not know; the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. (Interruptions) I am so sorry, Sir, please do not take me otherwise. The message which is going from this august House is that we are not very serious about it. If you are serious, then please, you cannot say that the Prime Minister has not said this. If you do not know about this, kindly find out what the Prime Minister has said. (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I have understood you. Why do you ask me to comment on the Prime Minister's statement? What is your intention?

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: I will tell you why. Because...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: You want to show that there is a difference between... (Interruptions) By this kind of trap, we are not going to solve this problem.

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: No, because, the Prime Minister said... Sir, there are no traps. If it were a political issue, I would have walked out. (Interruptions) No, Sir, I must have my say. The hon. Prime Minister said, "it is across the border", and Shri Deshpandeji said, "where is the proof?" (Interruptions) I would rather believe my Prime Minister than George Bush.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This is a Short Duration Discussion and you have said what you want to. That is enough. (Interruptions)

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: This is not fair. Sir, let me complete. (Interruptions) (contd. by kls/4n)


SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: Am I to understand that the Prime Minister did not say this? ...((Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, the office of the Prime Minister is not there. You are asking about what he said. ...((Interruptions)... If you want to put that question, you put that question to the Prime Minister. ...((Interruptions)... I cannot start a new debate on that. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: The hon. Home Minister said, "I am not going to tell about what the Prime Minister said. ....(Interruptions)... He is the Prime Minister and not an ordinary person. ...((Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I have not yet completed. Allow me to reply. ...((Interruptions)... My hon. friend, the hon. Member, wants to know what the Prime Minister has said. The Prime Minister is a Member of this House. He is in a position to reply to his question. He is asking a Prime Minister's Minister in the Cabinet that he should comment on what the Prime Minister has said. I do not think that this is a method we can follow. Why should I speak for the Prime Minister? The Prime Minister can speak for himself. But I can tell you that the same question was asked in the other House also that the Home Minister has not said anything against the evidence available with the Government with respect to the activities from across the border and I did get up and said that what is being said is not correct; we do have the information about the activities across the border and what the Prime Minister said is correct. But I am not going to say anything more than that. Why did you ask me to comment on his statement? You can get it from him. .... (Interruptions)... I cannot reply on what the Prime Minister said. ...((Interruptions)... (Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Short Duration Discussion is over. Now we take up the Protection of Human Rights Bill. But before that, after the legislative business is over...((Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I request you to take it up tomorrow.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We have decided and, in fact, we wanted the MoS...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I am not ready. ...(Interruptions)... He is in the other House. He is required to vote there on the Office of Profit Bill. ...(Interruptions)... I am not ready with this. ...(Interruptions)... I am just concentrating on this. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We can start the discussion and you can reply later. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I have not seen it. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now we take up the Special Mentions.



DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (RAJASTHAN): Sir, despite the fact that a National Programme for Control of Blindness is under implementation in the country, the visually handicapped persons face all sorts of odds in their day to day life and more so the visually handicapped females. Governments are running Blind Schools and Training Centres to give them vocational training but the number of such schools and training centres is awfully inadequate.

In Government jobs one per cent vacancies are reserved for visually handicapped persons but even this small percentage is not fully filled up and there remains backlog of vacancies for one reason or the other, whereas qualified visually handicapped persons are available. Renowned Helen Keller was also a handicapped person. As per the National Survey of Blindness, 2001-03, there are estimated to be 1.2 crore visually handicapped or blind persons in the country and the estimated prevalence of blindness is 0.91 per cent in males and 1.29 per cent in females. For these unfortunately visually handclapped persons darkness has become part of their lives. Most of them lead a life of dependence on others charity or they live as beggars.

In a welfare State like India, adequate employment opportunities should be provided to these unfortunate brothers and sisters of our society to that they too can lead a worthwhile life.

The conscience of the nation should rise to the succour of these hapless people and the Government should ensure that every visually handicapped person who remains unemployed be entitled for unemployment allowance till such time he or she is given employment.

Thank you.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (RAJASTHAN) Sir, I support this Special Mention. (Ends) (Followed by 4O)




SHRI MAHENDRA MOHAN (UTTAR PRADESH): Sir, recently, at the high-profile Safdarjung Hospital, New Delhi, a surgery patient was saved from being subjected to a medicine meant for the cows; thanks to the alertness of the surgeon at the operating table, just minutes before the surgery. As reported, the consignment of the medicine, procured from a local supplier in Delhi, passed the three-tier verification system of the Hospital, to reach the operation theatre. Only minutes ahead of the solution being used on the patient, a doctor in the surgery department discovered the fatal error on the bottle which was marked "not for human use". It was meant for use on cows. If it had been used it could have led even to death of the patient. It is a matter of serious concern to us all and needs investigation and, for future, it is necessary to put in place a mechanism or procedure to ensure that only the correct medicines reach the operation table and a patient receives the right medicine(s). Thank you. (Ends)




PROF. P. J. KURIEN (KERALA): Sir, the Power Grid Corporation of India is planning to lay 400 KV transmission line from "Koodamkulam Atomic Energy Centre" of Tamil Nadu to 400 KV Sub Station of Trichur, Kerala. The above line will pass through thickly populated districts of Kerala such as Kollam, Pathanamthitta, Kottayam, Ernakulam etc. Large areas of rubber plantation, coconut cultivation and pepper plantation will have to be destroyed if the proposal is implemented. The farmers in the above districts are on the agitational path. They are demanding that the Power Grid Corporation may consider alternate route, where the loss will be minimum when compared with the proposed line. There are various proposals in this regard namely Aryaneavu-Thenmala-Konni and Neriyamangalam route or Koodamkulam-Udumalpeta route. In any case, the heavy loss to the farmers and the State by implementing the proposed line have to be avoided. The Power Ministry is requested to direct the Power Grid Corporation to consider alternate proposals to minimize the loss to the farmers and the State. Thank you. (Ends)




SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (RAJASTHAN): Sir, I rise to commend the attention of the august House to the alarming omissions on the part of concerned officers of FCI and other associated Departments responsible for the food procurement, storage and distribution. As the Government makes earnest efforts to secure food grains for economically weaker sections at affordable price through PDS network, there are recurrent reports of pilferage that cannot take place but for active complicity of personnel of the concerned Departments. The unscrupulous elements in the Departments have undermined the effort by the Government. Food grains meant for ration shops are being diverted to flour mills. The concerned Departments have not only failed in plugging the loopholes but have also failed in promptly responding to such an alarming situation. As reported in media, thousands of kilograms of wheat that has been confiscated by the Delhi Police is left rotting for weeks in Police Stations and other sundry places for the want of avoidable official procedures. It is obviously the responsibility of concerned Food and Supplies Departments to secure such foodgrain and prevent rotting at every cost. It is disrespect to our farmers and almost a criminal neglect of public interest. I call upon the Government to weed out such unscrupulous elements in Food and Civil Supplies Establishment. I also seek from the Government to ensure proper and scientific protection of food stocks. As the Government strives to contain price rise, the civil authorities at District level should be instructed to be vigilant against such elements. Thank you. (Ends)

(Followed by NBR/4P)




MS PRAMILA BODIHAR (ORISSA): Sir, in a civil society to empower the deprived, the neglected and the underprivileged is certainly a forward-looking step. But, Sir, to achieve this, historical injustice and caste should not be the only guiding factor. There are weaker sections not only among our Scheduled Caste, Scheduled Tribe and Backward caste brethren, but they are found among the so-called high-caste people. If they are neglected and deprived, then our society will still remain weak at some point.

Therefore, I think, the best thing to empower the deprived and the underprivileged people in all castes -- backward or forward -- is to empower them in their own soil by redistribution of India's 20-crore acres of wasteland among the four-crore landless, underemployed and unemployed people. This will also help in generating more agricultural produce and contribute to the increase in Gross national Product.

In the past, the Mohan Dharia Committee on Wasteland Development had suggested such redistribution of land. If reservation is resorted to in the employment sector, everybody will be looking for jobs, rather than for more productive employment in the agriculture sector which is as such losing attraction among the rural population, particularly among the youth.

I, therefore, request, through you, Sir, the Government to give a serious thought to it so that the rural poor get their due share in progress and development. Thank you.



SHRI SHANTARAM LAXMAN NAIK (GOA): Sir, availability of land in Goa is very scarce. Therefore, land management in the State assumes high priority and meticulous planning. A number of foreigners are buying land in Goa. One cannot be against such purchase, but one expects that the law should be followed strictly.

Transactions of immovable properties by persons not residing in the country are dealt with under the Foreign Exchange Management Act, 1999. The mandatory requirement of 182 days stay under FEMA, the intentions of the foreign nationals and their bona fide have to be assessed by the Sub Registrars and necessary proofs have to be submitted by the foreign national prospective purchasers of immovable properties before the Sub Registrar.

At present, Sub Registrars seek proofs from the purchasers only in the form of affidavits which is too weak a proof as experience shows that, in India, provisions, regarding prosecution of those swearing false affidavits, are too mild.

Sir, the FEMA empowers the RBI to issue regulations for 'acquisition or transfer of immovable property in India, other than a lease not exceeding five years, by a person resident outside India.' Existing regulations of the RBI issued in the year 2000 are not clear as regards registration of immovable property under the Indian Registration Act. Sir, the Sub Registrars require guidance to tackle the transactions involving persons resident outside India. Therefore, the RBI has to issue more elaborate regulations.

While bona fide foreign nationals wishing to spend some years in Goa are welcome, but the Government has to exercise caution in view of increasing drug offences in the State. Thank you. (Ends)





SHRIMATI SYEDA ANWARA TAIMUR (ASSAM): Sir, the increase in the oil prices is devastating the foreign reserves of our nation and the common man's pocket. The Jatropha initiative on a national scale can bring employment to villagers and create energy independence of our nation. The pressures of climatic change, global warming and pollution are also addressed since the plant takes carbon from the air and converts it into oil. The plant can grow in deserts, wastelands and areas where there is low rainfall. Even if there is a drought this plant has the capacity to survive and grow. The worry of the monsoons can become a thing of the past. In the regions where anti-social elements have spread because of unemployment, Jatropha can bring in employment.

Jatropha initiatives have already begun in a large scale in Tamil Nadu, Uttar Pradesh, Maharashtra and Uttaranchal. It is time to take this initiative to the national level and increase attention in this field. The defence establishments can use their resources to train people in sensitive regions to earn from Jatropha projects. While giving jobs, it will also improve the domestic security of the nation. Even at the international level, we can bring in resources from our partner countries that want to develop cleaner energy. Because pollution from this product is much less than regular diesel, I request the hon. Prime Minister to constitute a Central Committee that will oversee the cooperation at the national and international level between State agencies, private companies, research institutions and NGOs for development of Jatropha project. (Ends)


ָ (ָ Ϥ) : ֳ֯ן , 1998-99 ֻ֟߮ ׾֢ ӡ ֵ ׸ י ָ ָ Դָ֤֮ ֟ ׸ ָ ָ֮ , ו ׻֋ ֻ ֱ ָ ָ ִ, ׌ ִָ ָ , օ

׾ָ֯ߟ ߋ ָָ, ִ ֤ ָָ ־ , ָ ִ , ו ָ ׻֋ ߻ ֵ֟ ֺ ֵ ֟ ֮ ֟ ֮ ׻֋ ׌ ֮ ֛օ ־ֿ ֓ ֜օ ִ ֮ ׌, ו ֵ ָ֯ ־ , ָ ֺ օ ִ ֤ ֵ ִ ïꌙ ֕ ֜ ™ָ֓ ָ֜ ߅

֮֮ߵ ׾֢ ӡ ֋ ִ ׾ֿ ָ ד֟ ? ָ ֕þ ָ֜ , ֮ ? פ , ?

: ֮֮ߵ ׾֢ ӡ ִ ֤ ִõ ֮ ֟ ֋ ִ ֮ ָ ִ ֵ ֋ ֮־֤


֮ ֤ (ָ Ϥ) : , ֮ ֯ ׾ֿ ֣ ִ֨


ִ ̴֕ (ָ Ϥ) : , ֮ ֯ ׾ֿ ֣ ִ֨





SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY (KARNATAKA): Sir, various parts of Karnataka are under the grip of drought and resultantly there is acute shortage of drinking water. Hubli/Dharwad, a major township in the North Karnataka, is thirsting for water.

With a view to alleviating the water scarcity of Hubli/Dharwad, Karnataka had mooted in May, 2000 a proposal to divert 7.56 TMC of water from the Mahadhai Basin to the Malaprabha Dam.

The proposal envisages construction of a dam across Kalasa and Bandura 'nalas' and diversion canals. Since the project would encompass 500 hectares of forestland, the Environment & Forests Ministry has been approached for its clearance. The work relating to survey, design, estimates, hydrological study, etc. pertaining to the proposed Kalasa and Banura 'nalas' and diversion canals project, has mostly been completed. Further, necessary presentations before the Forest Advisory Committee have been made and interstate meetings involving Karnataka, Goa and Maharashtra have been held under the aegis of Central Water Commission.

In principle, clearance was given by the Ministry of Water Resources from water availability for diversion of 7.56 TMC from Mahadhai Basin April, 2002 to meet the water requirement of Hubli/Dharwad. However, it has been kept in abeyance pending decision of the Tribunal.

Lack of appropriate response from Forest and Water Resources Departments to the people's sufferings is agitating people in the affected area to such an extent that they are resorting to holding the leaders in captivity. Hence, I appeal to the Central Government to intervene to facilitate early implementation of the projects.


SHRIMATI PREMA CARIAPPA (KARNATAKA): Sir, I associate myself with what the hon. Member, Shri Janardhana Poojary, has said.

(Followed by 4r -- VP)