THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL): Sir, we have discussed this matter for four days in this House.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Two-and-half hours matter we have discussed for four days.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Yes, one of the advantages of discussing a matter like this for more than one day is that the Minister gets the opportunity to write down his speech and read it to the House which I am seeking your permission to do. I want to make one more request to the hon. Members in the House. The request is, I may not be interrupted in between when I am reading out my written speech. If they have any explanation to get from me they can write it down on a piece of paper and can ask for the explanation when I conclude my speech and I will endeavour to reply to their queries. My reply is going to be a little longish, Sir, and I seek the indulgence of the Presiding Officer and this House to allow me to make a reply which may be little longish and, yet, it may be covering many points which have been raised by the hon. Members of the House. It may not be possible to reply to all the points that have been made, but I will try to reply to most of the points, and if there are any doubts, today or afterwards I can try to reply to those doubts. I would like to thank the House and the hon. Presiding Officers for allowing this discussion and giving sufficient time to all the Members to make their points. I would also like to thank the hon. Members to have made very useful points while participating in this debate. All the good points made could be remembered while dealing with the matters relating to violence and terrorism with which we are trying to deal with, and while making decisions and policies to deal with these issues. The incidents that occurred in Mumbai on 11th of July, 2006 were very tragic and can be called dastardly and can be condemned. (Contd. by NBR/3T)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): Those who are responsible for it would be dealt with in a proper manner and punished as per the laws for the crimes they have committed. The people in Mumbai and other places behaved in a most responsible and wise manner. They helped the victims. They did not allow the harmony in the society to be disturbed. They did allow the diabolical designs of the terrorists to succeed. They protected the secular ethos of our country and the unity in the society. They deserve our thanks and congratulations. The men and officers in the Railways, in the State Government, in the media discharged their duties in an exemplary manner. Taxi drivers, bus and truck owners helped the commuters to reach their destinations. Doctors and nurses took care of the injured persons. They deserve our compliments and thanks. In times of difficulties and calamities the people are united and rise to the occasion and help themselves in every respect and in every manner. This is our strength and is something which should be protected and preserved. The Railways and the State Government have helped the victims and the injured. The details of the help given are known to us which need not be recounted here. If some more help of any kind were required, there would be no difficulty in making it available to the victims and their family members. The State Government would not be found wanting in this respect. The Railways and the Union Government will cooperate with the State Government fully to provide necessary help to the persons who have suffered in these incidents. We have a wide network of railways in our country. The terrorists are targeting them. The Railway Police and the State police help them to protect their properties and passengers. However, it is found that the system which is used to provide the necessary security need changes. The Railways and other Ministries and departments are engaged in preparing the plans to provide better security. If necessary, laws can be changed and new laws can be made also. The strength of the police with the Railways needs to be augmented. The system of creating cooperation between the Railway Police and the State Police needs to be refined. The Railway Board, the Railway Ministry and other Ministries are looking into these aspects and soon necessary steps could be taken, necessary new technologies would be used. The hon. Railway Minister is seized of this matter and he is taking necessary steps to strengthen the railway security. He has already taken some steps and some more steps, according to the plan made, would also be taken.

In New Dehi and Kolkata we have Metros. In Mumbai, Bangalore and other cities Metros may be started in a few years to come. These Metros are going to need a better security arrangement than they have today. A plan to provide full security to Delhi Metro is nearly completed.



SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): It may be used to provide security to Metro Railways in Calcutta and Metro Railways in other places also. A lot of manpower would be required; new kinds of gadgets and equipments would be required; new kinds of training, to be given to the persons who are manning these Metro Railways, would be required. All those things would be done and the experience shared by the people in other countries, who suffered from attacks on railways, is also examined by us in order to make our plans foolproof and to use them properly. The hon. Chief Minister of West Bengal was very careful and he did telephone to me asking, "Can something be done to provide better security to the Metro Railways also?" And, it was possible for me to tell him that we had prepared a plan for Delhi Metro Railways and that plan can be examined by the Government of West Bengal; and, if it is found suitable, it can be used by them also. The Government of India will extend all necessary and appropriate help in this matter.

Sir, the terrorists hide in forests and mega cities and attack innocent people at their will. It is very easy to hide in the forests, and it is equally easy to hide in the cities also. Those who are involved in violent activities make use of this fact. We have taken steps to stop and prevent them from doing mischief in forest areas, which have succeeded to some extent. We have paid some attention to improving the security apparatus in cities, which also help to some extent. We have asked the State Governments to prepare plans to protect their big cities and implement them fully and meticulously. The Government of India wants them to provide surveillance facilities on the ground, on the borders, and also from the air. It wants them that the manpower, provided to the cities to protect themselves, should be augmented. The States need to look at these issues in a systematic and meticulous manner. The efforts would be encouraged to support it with funds and other inputs. The task of building a better mega city security arrangement should be done in cooperation between the Governments and the people. If the Government of Maharashtra comes up with these kinds of plans and other States come up with plans for mega city policing, they can be looked into for necessary and favourable action and support by the Union Government.

Some hon. Members have made very relevant points with respect to attacks on the city of Mumbai. And, they are very right when they say that Mumbai enjoys a special position in our country. It is treated as economic and industrial capital of India. It is a city which is attracting the people from outside the country also. It is a city where the people from all parts of the country go and live. It is a city which has been helped by the entire country as such to have one of the most important seaports, airports, the Reserve Bank, industrial units, educational facilities, medical facilities and many, many things. The country has helped Mumbai to develop, and Mumbai is helping country to develop. Because of this Mumbai becomes a target. People want to attack the ethos, the people and the structure in Mumbai. (Contd. by 3W -- VP)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): And, that is why, we need to take special care of Mumbai. We leave it to the State Government and our friends over there who are in the police and other administrative wings of the Government to look at these aspects carefully; prepare the plan and forward those plans to the Government of India. The Government of India would, definitely, look into these plans, and if they are found to be suitable to provide security to the mega cities, the same plans can be used in the cities of Delhi, Kolkatta, Bangalore, Chennai and other places also with liberty given to the State Governments to modify in a manner which suits their requirements and needs. Now, this is the attitude, this is the kind of policy we would like to adopt with respect to the city of Mumbai and the mega cities in our country.

We have been asking the police to utilise helicopters to survey the cities. Surveying the cities from the air with the help of helicopters is easier than surveying them by walking on the roads through narrow lanes and streets of these cities.

Having cameras at different places, which was suggested by one of the hon. Members here, is going to be very useful. In the city of Delhi, we do have cameras installed at certain places. But even in Delhi, the number of cameras is not sufficient. We need more cameras. We need cameras at market places, railway stations, hospitals, schools and at places where people generally gather. The cameras placed in the premises of this building, we know, helped in protecting this building when it was attacked. These were the cameras that really helped. When the terrorists were trying to enter this building through different gates, persons sitting in the Control Room watched their movements; gave the alarm bell and all the doors were closed. As the doors were closed, the terrorists remained outside, and, then, they were controlled by the police outside and from the top, and this building could be protected. Now, the same thing has to be done with respect to the buildings, lanes, roads, gullies and public places in cities like this. A city like Singapore has many, many cameras throughout the city. In every nook and corner there are many cameras at different levels, looking in different directions, and moving in all the directions. This is something which is to be done in order to provide security to the people living in big cities. And big cities are the cities where modern industries are coming up. Electronic industry, genetic industry and all other kinds of modern industries are flocking to these cities. That is why, they have become the targets and we shall have to take special care to provide special kind of security to all the installations, industries, market places and important places in the city. Sir, for this purpose a lot of funds, manpower, new kind of training and technologies are required which would be provided by the Union and the State Governments. It may not be necessary for me to go into greater details in this respect today in this debate. Having said all that, I could say just a few minutes before that it has become necessary to provide full security to many other important installations in the country. The State Governments are sensitised to be more vigilant and take necessary steps.

(Continued by PK/3X)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL(CONTD.): Airports, bus stands, markets, religious places, laboratories, modern industries need to be protected. The persons heading these institutions and activities are sensitised to be more vigilant and careful. The Union Government is helping them with manpower, men and officers from CISF, and other forces with information, intelligence and necessary advice. The State Governments are also sensitised to take special care to provide security to these installations. One of the difficult problems which is faced at the national level is that we have the information, we sensitise the State Governments, and the institutions and organisations which are likely to be attacked, but the information which is available to us is not actionable information, accurate information about the exact place and exact time when this can happen; that is the difficulty. Many hon. Members, while speaking in this House, referred to this aspect. The Government of India did inform the Government of Maharashtra, and has been informing the State Governments also about the trends which are becoming visible. What is likely to be attacked? Is it the religious places that are likely to be attacked? Are market places likely to be attacked? Are political institutions likely to be the targets? They are going to be the soft targets or hard targets. Now, in which direction are these kind of terrorist activities going to proceed and move? That kind of information is provided to the State Governments, but that does not mean that the State Governments were informed that a railway, or, a bus station or a market place, or, a laboratory would be attacked. And, it was not possible for them to prevent that kind of attack on those institutions. It would not be very correct to hold them responsible for this. I think this should be understood in correct perspective. If we do not understand in correct perspective, the result would be creating a division in the efforts made by the Union Government, State Governments, and other organisations in combating violence and terrorism in our country, which needs to be avoided. Sometimes, the information given is misread, misunderstood, misprinted and published in a manner which can create, not the confidence but the fear psychosis in the minds of the people involved in it. And, that is why; we shall have to be very particular about these things. Here also, while speaking, one or two Members spoke about the statement made by the responsible officers in the Government of India. Now, they, on their own, are not making statements. Sometimes, questions are put to them, and in reply to those questions, they reply. The question before them and the question before the Ministers also, who talk to the media persons, is whether they should disclose that information or not. And, some of us do not disclose; some of us carefully disclose; and, some of us think that let it be known to the people also so that it can sensitise the people around that area and can help also. That is a matter of perception; we should not find any fault with them. Nobody is doing it in order to create unnecessary scare in the minds of the people. If something is said, it has to be correctly represented; it has to be correctly used; otherwise, misconceptions can develop and it can cause harm to the cause of providing security to the installations which are over there...(Interruptions)... (Followed by 3Y/PB)


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, I would like to say one thing. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will reply. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He has requested not to interrupt him. ...(Interruptions)... Manohar Joshiji, please don't interrupt. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will reply. ...(Interruptions)... You kindly note it down and I will reply. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the hon. Minister is not reading. ...(Interruptions)... He had said, 'If I am reading the speech, don't disturb me.' ...(Interruptions)... He is not reading. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Even otherwise, he doesn't want interruptions in between his reply. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Even if I say that 'I will read', that doesn't mean that I would not speak ... . ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, I am asking him about the Prime Minister's statement. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You can ask for that. ...(Interruptions)... You can definitely ask about that. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, he is not speaking about the Prime Minister's statement. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: First let him say whatever he wants to say. ...(Interruptions)... Later on, you can seek clarifications. I will give an opportunity to you. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, it was said that the Government of Maharashtra was informed. ...(Interruptions)... What happened to it? ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: You ask that question and I will reply to that. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will give you an opportunity. ...(Interruptions)... Joshiji, I will give you an opportunity. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: In the beginning itself I said that ... ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: ... both the statements ...(Interruptions)... We are sorry, but he is not ... ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No; See, you have been there as a Chief Minister. The Minister is making a statement, and he is to be allowed to make a statement. ...(Interruptions)... Reading doesn't mean that he will not speak anything else, just read. ...(Interruptions)... In the beginning itself, he said that.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I will request my colleagues not to obstruct me because, you know, if my flow is broken, my thought-process is also broken. If that is your intention, then you have succeeded.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The reply may not be in your chronological order. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: It cannot be. ...(Interruption)... You please write it down, I will reply. I will definitely reply. ...(Interruptions)... I will reply. I said it at the beginning itself. I said it at the beginning, and I am not finding fault with any of the Members, and it is not necessary for me to find fault and make a point. I would rather neglect that which is not acceptable to me and then speak on those points which, I think, can really help all of us to come to certain conclusions which can be helpful to the entire country and the matter of the security of all of us and the country. Sir, I am taking that attitude. I am not finding fault with anybody.

Sir, the population of our country has increased by leaps and bounds. The police population ratio in India is very, very unsatisfactory. In Russia, for every eighty-two citizens, there is one policeman; whereas in India, for every 740-750 citizens, there is one police person. But if you take into account, the policemen used for other duties like serving notices and summons and all those things, this ratio becomes still more unsatisfactory. It goes up; for every 900, nearly 900 members, we have a policeman in our country. We have asked the State Governments to have more police personnel in their forces. The Union Government is going to raise nearly three hundred battalions to augment its forces. The forces need to be modernised and given better firepower, transport and communication facilities, for which funds are given to the State Governments and to the Union Government. They are asked to give modern and suitable training to their forces also. Now, Sir, what is the amount which is going to be spent for this purpose, for modernising the Central paramilitary forces? For modernising the Central paramilitary forces, we are going to spend nearly Rs. 4184 crores. For helping the State Governments to raise new battalions and augment their force level, we are giving Rs. 1025 crores. We are not only saying, 'you do it' and just sit doing nothing. We are providing this kind of money for this purpose. (Contd. by 3z/SKC)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): And this is over and above what we are giving to the State Governments to meet Security Related Expenditure. Nearly Rs. 314 crores are given to meet Security Related Expenditure. Not only that, we have given funds to the State Governments to renew and construct police stations and also jails.

Now, the funds that are given for constructing police stations are part of the modernisation scheme. But, as far as constructing new jails is concerned, we are giving Rs. 192 crores. Sometimes we find that the funds that are allotted to them are not really utilised; they remain unutilised.

Now, as far as the Government of Maharashtra is concerned -- somebody may get up at the end and may ask, what is the amount of money that is given to the Government of Maharashtra? Sir, to the Government of Maharashtra, in the last three years, for SRE, that is Security Related Expenditure, we have given Rs. 200 lakhs; I can give you the figures for amount of money allotted for 2005-06. For police modernisation, for 2005-06, we have allotted Rs. 88.78 crores. Five mine-protected vehicles have been given to them and we have allowed them to raise two IR battalions. Two IR battalions amount to nearly 2000 personnel, and the funds which are required for raising IR battalions are also given by the Government of India to the State Governments, which are equivalent to nearly Rs. 50 crores for each of the battalions.

Then, for the Backward District Initiative, last year, we had given Rs. 30 crores; the total amount of money that has been allotted for the Backward District Initiative is Rs. 75 crores. But, sometimes, generally the big States do not worry about such small amounts of money and the money remains unutilised. Now, my experience has been that the big States don't spend the money that is allotted to them; the smaller States spend the money. They have spent the money allotted for modernisation, but as far as the Backward District Initiative is concerned, they have not spent the money; not even 50 per cent of the amount has been spent over that. But I am not finding fault with them. If they want to do it, they may do so any time. I am not finding fault with them. They have their own schemes that are strong enough. They are spending a lot of money on Employment Guarantee Scheme of the State Government itself, irrigation projects, power projects and construction of roads. I know it personally because I was involved in it in the 1980s; but then, the point is, sometimes the money remains unutilised. The performance by the Government of Maharashtra, as far as utilisation of funds goes, has not been bad. It has been good; about 90, 92 or 98 per cent funds have been utilised. Under one or two heads, the funds used are not proportionate to the funds that are allotted to them. That is what I am trying to say.

Dr. Alexander spoke in the House about the Mega City Plan. As a matter of fact, they did prepare a Mega City Plan and they did send it to the Government of India. I tried to find out the facts from there, but they had come through the State Government. The City Police are not allowed to approach the Union Government for funds without going through the State Governments. City Police is not different from the entire police force in the State as such and it is not possible for them to go to the Union Government and say that for ensuring security to be given to the people living in the cities this is the kind of money we require; give us the money directly. This is not done. (Contd. by 4a)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): It becomes a part of that. All the same, I would like to say that Mumbai is an important city and I have said before also and here in the House also I have said, if they prepare a good plan, a plan with the help of all the experts having seen what is being done in mega cities in all parts of the world, and they give those plans to the Government of India, the Government of India would not only look into those plans to help them with funds, but would like to use those plans for providing security in other States also. We are in the process of developing a plan for providing securities to mega cities in our country which covers many other cities and which covers many areas. Unfortunately, all these things are being done but they are not discussed. What we discuss is the negative side of the policing. The positive side of policing is not, unfortunately, always highlighted and it remains in the background. It does not appear in the media also and when the occasion like this arises everybody thinks that nothing is being done and so this is happening. On the contrary, many things are being done and that is why many things are avoided. When many things did not happen because of that, this aspect also has to be borne in mind to come to the correct conclusion and to develop a correct perspective as to the policing in the mega cities, in the States at the national level and at all other levels also. Sir, one of the most important points was made by respected Member, Nirmala Deshpandeji. I liked her speech very much. It was very brief, to the point, philosophical and very relevant and it projected one aspect of the security which has to be provided. We have heard some hon. Members saying that 'don't be a soft State; it is not beneficial to be soft on terror; you should have to be a strong State.' There was a time in 80s when people were saying that India was a soft State. At that time, they had said India was a soft State and they were arguing that India should be a strong State. Well, Dr. Murli Manohar Joshiji, of course, quoted Kautilya and he -- I know him very well -- did not want to say all that which can come out of what he said, and yet I would like to say that if one thorn hurts you, would you cut down all the three thorny trees? Would we try to cut down all the thorns and thorny trees? That cannot be our position. We would like to ..(Interruptions)..

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: That was not my position also. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: That was Kautilya's position. ..(Interruptions)..

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: What I said was, if there is a place which is hurting the country, then all such places have to be dealt with strongly. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: What is the implication of what you said? The implication of what you said and the implication of what Nirmalaji was saying are two different things. You were saying that if somebody has committed an offence or violence has been committed by him, you destroy him and destroy all the thorns around him. It means a very dangerous thing.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: I didn't say this. What I said was, the capability of a thorn to hit you, to strike you and to hurt you is to be kept in mind and that is the thing that Americans have done. One incident took place, but they said no more attack is possible. Therefore, ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Many times we have been referring to America and what is happening in America. America is a great country; America is a ..(Interruptions)..

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: So are we. ..(Interruptions).. So are we. ..(Interruptions).. I don't agree that we are not a great country. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: America is a great country; America is a modern country; America is a country which is using technology, but, at the same time, America is a country which accepts the liberal principles. ..(Interruptions).. And India is an ancient country. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ: You are also the Home Minister of a great country. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I have not completed, Madam. Let me finish and then you can comment. India is an ancient country. It has its spiritual philosophy of life and it is also a liberal country and that is exactly why, in America the President was killed and, unfortunately, we lost our Prime Ministers. (Contd. by 4b/KSK)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD): This should not be forgotten.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: We have never said it. What we are saying is that terrorism must be met with all strength. That is the point.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Let me complete. I am willing to sit here for any number of hours to participate in the debate and reply to the questions. The point I was making was that there are two views expressed on the floor of the House. One view is: take a strong stand; you attack the attackers, the violent people, the terrorists. And, nobody would say that when terrorists are attacking, you preach spiritualism and don't act. Nobody is saying that. But, should that be the attitude? Now, if one person has done it, should we hold all the persons responsible? In this debate, one of the things which has.....(Interruptions).

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Who has said it?...(Interruptions). But, nobody has said it. To the best of my....(Interruptions)..., nobody has said it.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let him complete. ֤ ֯ ו֋օ He has said in the beginning itself....(Interruptions).

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, two-three things are very prominently projected in this debate. One thing is that look, you be a little more strict. Some said that, no, you have to be quite strict. And, some said that look, only with barrel of the gun and the bullet, you won't be able to solve this problem. There is something else which will be required. And, when this 'something else' was discussed, not now but some time back, nearly two years back, that let us talk, let us understand, let us try to persuade them to give up their violent activities and violent attitude, it was welcomed by some; it was attacked by others; it was ridiculed by some others also. Now, that was the position taken then. Today also....(Interruptions).

ֳ֯ן : , ֯ ך ֮ ו֋ ֯ ֤ ו֋օ ָ ׸և օ

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Today also, Sir, the same position is being projected in this House. Now, some friends are saying that look, when this is happening, you can't just preach peace and understanding and do nothing. That would not be helping the innocent people who are suffering. And, Nirmalaji said that look, only with bullet and the barrel, you won't be able to solve this problem. You shall have to take them into confidence, talk to them and solve this problem. And, some people said that you use both the methods. If it is possible, talk to them; if it is not possible, don't talk to them. Now, for instance, I would like to give information to this House. We were talking to the NAGA leaders, and there was bloodshed going on some time back. With the peace agreement with the NAGAs, that kind of bloodshed was stopped. It was achieved through argument, discussion and dialogue. In Mizoram also, this was achieved through argument, discussion and dialogue. In Punjab also, this was achieved with political steps which were taken, dialogues and discussions which were held by our colleagues who are sitting with us in the Ministry today with those people who were there, and force was also used and the problem was solved. Now, this is the position here. Now, what we are trying to say is that look, whatever you are saying, these are your sincere opinions, views and we would not like to brush them aside and say that they are irrelevant and we are not going to look into them. To the extent they are relevant, to the extent they can be used, we would definitely like to use them. One of the positions taken by many of the Members in the House, especially those who think that the economic aspect of the life is very important, they have been saying that if people are unemployed, if they are suffering and if they are finding disparity in the society, they are likely to be angry and take to the arms and create some kind of violence also. Would you not provide a solution to this problem by bringing about some kind of development? And, they are right, and that is the policy of the Government of India. The Government of India's policy is -- I would like to make it very clear -- that it does not hold any community, as such, responsible for violence in the country. There are people in all communities who may be responsible for violence, but because a person belonging to a community has done some violent activity, the Government of India is not going to hold the entire community, as such, responsible for violence. This is our policy. Let there be no doubt.

(continued by 4c)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): The second policy which I would like to put before you is that we want to use multi-pronged approach to control violence and terrorism in the country. We would do our duty, by using the forces at our disposal, to control the violent activities of the misguided souls and misguided fellow citizens in our country whom I call brothers and sisters. Many people ridiculed me and, even today, they criticized me for having said that as if it was not factually correct.

We would like to use the force where using forces is necessary; and as Nirmalaji has rightly said, wherever it is possible and necessary, we would not shun the dialogue with those who would abjure violence. We did talk to Nagas, we are trying to talk to other modules of the terrorist organisations and with many of them, we have entered into talks.

The third position is that we would like to bring about economic development which has been the cause of this thing. What is the amount of money we are using for bringing about the economic development in these areas, Sir? You will be surprised to know it. As far as Jammu and Kashmir is concerned, the package given by the hon. Prime Minister for the development of this area is of Rs. 24,000 crores. Sir, the amount is Rs. 24,000 crores; and, power will be generated, roads will be constructed, schools will be built, health facilities will be provided, employment will be given, agriculture will be developed, forests will be developed, housing facilities will be provided, and, their complaint that it is not economically developed, will be met. They would be told, look, we would be doing our best to bring you not only at par with us but in several aspects, you can be better of also.

I would like to bring to the notice of the House, because all the time they would be asking, what have you done. I have told what has been done to strengthen the police force. I have explained what is being done to bring about understanding between the groups of persons who have taken to the arms, to enter into peace agreement.

As far as North Eastern States is concerned, Sir, for the information of this hon. House, I would like to say that a package of Rs. 20,000 crores is given to them. Sir, a package of Rs. 20,000 crores is given to the North Eastern States to bring about economic development, and, it is provided that the money which is given to them will be non-lapsable. Again, some people will ask, what is the amount of money given to the naxalite-affected States for this purpose. Now, I would like to inform the House that an amount of Rs. 2,475 crores is given to the naxalite-affected States. Every now and then, a point is raised over here about the number of Districts, which are affected. I don't know why we take pleasure in saying that we are suffering too much because of the spread of this terrorism or naxalism everywhere. I have taken pains to explain that this figure of 177 Districts is not correct. They said that your officers said it, we have picked it up from that, why are you complaining. I have asked my officers also, look, what is it that you are giving to them also. I have told them. Supposing, in a District, a village is affected, would you call the entire District as affected. Now, they are saying that 13 States are affected. That means, one-third of the States are affected by naxalite activities, which is wrong. It is not correct. If one person has died and has called himself as a naxalite, you call that State affected by naxalite movements. A State where four or five persons are dying, and, are calling themselves as naxalites, is treated as naxal-affected State, which is not factually correct. I have explained to them that instead of giving this statistics in terms of Districts, please for God's sake, give the statistics in terms of the Police Stations which are affected. Even statistics in terms of the police stations will not give the correct picture. (Contd. by sk-4d)


SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (CONTD.): Villages affected will really give the correct picture. And, do you know how many police stations are affected? Nearly 500 police stations are affected. Now, if out of nearly 15,000 police stations, 500 police stations are affected, it comes to nearly 5 per cent. If you take district-wise, it comes to nearly 30 per cent. We have 550 districts. If you say 170 districts are affected, it means nearly one-third of the number of districts are affected. And, if you consider these police stations, it is.. Now, editorials have been written, and they are saying that the Home Minister is trying to quibble out of this difficult position and trying to say that it is like that. I am not trying to protect myself or my friends in the police forces or anybody. If the truth is that, I must face it boldly and try to do my best to overcome that difficulty. I can't save myself or my fellow citizens of my country or cannot do my duty trying to hide the things which should not be. But, it is not my duty also to create the scare and the terror in the community. Now, what is creating terror and the fear? Now, one person is taking the gun, going and attacking a temple, mosque, a city, a railway station. Why? They are not their personal enemies. They want to create the scare, the terror in the minds of the people. And if that is projected -- I am sorry to say, some of the leaders in the media are sitting here -- in a fashion which gives the wrong picture and if it reaches all the people who are reading it, will it not create a scare? If you project it 24 hours, will it not create a scare to you? I tell you, we went to Mumbai. Mrs. Gandhi was there and Mr. Lalu Prasad Yadav was there. I tell you what the man who was lying on the bed injured, says. When he saw Mrs. Gandhi, he got up and said, "Madam, don't worry". He was the injured, lying on the bed. Within two hours he said, "Madam, don't worry. We will remain united. We will fight this. We will remain united. They want to divide our unity and we will not allow this to happen. Don't worry". I mean, this is a common man who is injured and within two hours says. Should we not take a clue from him? I must say and I would like to thank the media profusely this time they projected the issue in such a fashion that it helped to maintain peace and amity and tranquillity in Mumbai. If they had not helped, probably things could not have been this easy. I am grateful to them. But, one of the aspects which has to be borne in mind is, are we ourselves responsible for generating this terror and fear psychology in the society giving a disproportionate exposure to some of the things which are happening in some parts of the country and taking them to all parts of the country and saying that this is happening in your neighbourhood? Something happening in Assam, the man in Kerala, sitting there, feels like it is happening in my neighbourhood. I am not blaming. Please don't think that I am blaming. I can't blame anybody and especially the media people cannot be blamed. We can blame anybody but not the media people because they have the final word and we don't have the facility to counter what they say. So, we just keep quiet. I am not blaming. I am just expressing the concern I feel. If it is disproportionately projected, everybody sitting in his house feels that this terrorist activity is happening just in his neighbourhood, next door to him and a scare is generated. Who is going to extinguish that fire of fear in his mind if this happens because of the wrong publicity or excess publicity or the publicity disproportionately given? That has to be looked into. And we are just appealing that in this we are all parties to a cause and I have no doubt that the patriotic fervour in media is also bound to help. If not in ordinary times, in times of need, they have risen to the height and they are bound to help us. But this is an aspect which has to be borne in mind. (Contd. by 4e)