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-GSP/YSR-SC/1.00/1R

The House reassembled at one of the clock,

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair

 

BILLS INTRODUCED

THE SIKKIM UNIVERSITY BILL, 2006

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRI ARJUN SINGH): Sir, I beg to move for leave to introduce a Bill to establish and incorporate a teaching and affiliating University in the State of Sikkim and to provide for matters connected therewith or incidental thereto.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

SHRI ARJUN SINGH: Sir, I introduce the Bill.

(Ends)

THE TRIPURA UNIVERSITY BILL, 2006

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRI ARJUN SINGH): Sir, I beg to move for leave to introduce a Bill to establish and incorporate a teaching and affiliating University in the State of Tripura and to provide for matters connected therewith or incidental thereto.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

SHRI ARJUN SINGH: Sir, I introduce the Bill.

(Ends)

THE RAJIV GANDHI UNIVERSITY BILL, 2006

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRI ARJUN SINGH): Sir, I beg to move for leave to introduce a Bill to establish and incorporate a teaching and affiliating University in the State of Arunachal Pradesh and to provide for matters connected therewith or incidental thereto.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

SHRI ARJUN SINGH: Sir, I introduce the Bill.

(Ends)

THE CONSTITUTION (SCHEDULED TRIBES) ORDER AMENDMENT BILL, 2006.

THE MINISTER OF TRIBAL AFFAIRS (SHRI P.R. KYNDIAH): Sir, I beg to move for leave to introduce a Bill further to amend the Constitution (Scheduled Tribes) Order, 1950 to modify the list of Scheduled Tribes in the State of Bihar.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

SHRI P.R. KYNDIAH: Sir, I introduce the Bill.

(Ends)

 

SHORT DURATION DISCUSSION ON INCREASING INCIDENTS OF TERRORIST VIOLENCE IN THE COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY IN THE CONTEXT OF RECENT BOMB BLASTS IN MUMBAI -- (contd.)

 

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, the Short Duration Discussion on the increasing incidents of terrorist violence in the country, particularly in the context of recent bomb blasts in Mumbai raised by Shri Manohar Joshi on 26th July 2006. When the House adjourned on 27th July 2006, Shri Rajeev Shukla had not concluded his speech. Mr. Rajeev Shukla.

֕߾ ㌻ : ֮־ָ, ָ יֵ ָ ֤ ã֟ ï™ ׌ ָ ָ ֋, ִ ׻ֵ ָ ָ ֮ օ ֱ Ͽ օ ׻֋ ָ ֋, ָ ִ֮ ״֡ ׮־

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ׾֤ ו֋

֮֮ߵ ֤õ : ֯ ׾֤ ו֋ ..(־֮֬)..

֕߾ ㌻ : ֮־ָ, ֟ ԅ..(־֮֬)..֟ ֵ߅..(־֮֬)..ֲ ָ ָ , ִ ׻ֵ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Narayanasamy, please. (Interruptions)

֕߾ ㌻ : ֲ ָ , ִ ׻ֵ , ֱ ־ֻ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, he is doing it deliberately. (Interruptions) Sir, again and again, he is doing it deliberately. (Interruptions)

֕߾ ㌻ : ִ ߲ ?

..׻ֵ : ױ ֯ ׾֤ ? ..(־֮֬)..ָ ֯ ӿ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : , ..(־֮֬)..

֕߾ ㌻ : ֯ ֵ ֟ ׸..(־֮֬).. ֵ ׬ָ ָ כ..(־֮֬)..

..׻ֵ : ֵ ֟ , ָ , ֤ ? ..(־֮֬)..

֕߾ ㌻ : ֯ע ֯ ֯ע ?..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ׻ֵ , ..(־֮֬)..

֕߾ ㌻ : ֲ ֯ע ..(־֮֬)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, discuss the Bombay bomb blasts.

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ ֮ ֜ ֮֮ߵ 0 ß֮ ָ ֟ ߅..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ׾֤ ו֋ ..(־֮֬)..

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, ֟ ֵ, ï™ ֵ ..(־֮֬)..

׾ ֤ : ֯ ׾֤ ׸ ..(־֮֬).. ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ..(־֮֬).. ָ ..(־֮֬)..

֕߾ ㌻ : פ ־ֻ ׬ָ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: When there is nothing..(Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, even Leader of the Opposition himself has said that he is prepared to discuss..(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Narayanasamy, please. (Interruptions)

ָ ֻ ӛ־ֻ : ֲ Ӥ ׾֤ ו֋ ׾֤ ׸ ֯օ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ך ֯ ֲ ך..(־֮֬). (1 ָ ֿ:)

-YSR/VKK-MP/1s/1.05

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, in the interest of running the House...(Interruptions)... We are discussing a very important issue. A discussion in the Chairman's Chamber also took place. We have to honour those things. Whoever it is? Whatever discussions we take up, in the interest of running the House properly...(Interruptions)... Please, please, ֲ ׻֋ , ׻֋ ׻֋ ָ ֟֓ߟ ֋ , I would request the hon. Members that let us run the House. It's being adjourned like this for the past two days. If you feel that, it should be done...(Interruptions)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, ֤ ï™ ֲ ? ...(־֮֬)....

ֳ֯ן : , , ㌻ , text ָ , I feel, on that basis, if you could do it, it will help me to run the House.

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, ָ ָ ֮ ֤ օ , ׾֯ ִ ׻ֵ օ ֱ " " , ׌ ִ ָ֬ ָ ָ ֮ , ֤ ָ ִ ֮ , ׮־

ֳ֯ן : ָ ָ , ֯ ׾֤ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)...

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ָ , ׾֤ ?

مولاناعبیداللہخاناعظمی : وہکہہرہےہیںکہآروپنہیںہے،توکیاودڈراکریںگے۔

 

֕߾ ㌻ : ֲ ָ , ׾֤ ?

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ָ ִ֟ , ָ ִ֟ ָ ִ֟ , ׾֤ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)... ߕ....(־֮֬)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ ֯ ֟ ־֮ , , ֯

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ו֋ ֯ ̸....֯ ̸....(־֮֬)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ״֮֙ ֵ ?

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ״֮֙ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)....

֕߾ ㌻ : ֱ ָ ևә ֵ օ ָ ևә ... (־֮֬)... ֌ ?

ֳ֯ן : ָ ̸ ֻܵ ֋ ....ֻܵ ֋ ։ ֋

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, ֌ Ӆ ևֻ ևә ָ . ֮ ָָ ָ ֵ ָ ֵ ß֮ ָ ...(־֮֬)...

. ֮ : ֯ ָ ָ ?

֕߾ ㌻ : , , ֯ ָ ָ ß֮ ָ , ָ . ָ ֵօ ֮־ָ, ß֮ ָ Ͽ ָ ָ ֮ ֻ֤ ֮־ֵ, ß֮ ָ ָ פ? ָ ̴֮ և..և. ן׾׬ֵ ֮ , ו֮֟ ... : ֻ ֮ Յ ...(־֮֬)... ֣, ו֮ ־֮ ֮ ֮, ꌵ׸ ٙױ ָ פ ֵօ ...(־֮֬)...

ָ ֤ : ֳ֯ן , ß֮ ָ ߕ , כև ו֋ ? ...(־֮֬)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ ß֮ ָ ֟ ߅

ֳ֯ן : ߕ ֌ ...(־֮֬)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ֟֋

ֳ֯ן : ֮֯ ִֵ ßֻ ׻ֵ , ߕ ֌ ...(־֮֬)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, ֮ ו֮ ꌵ׸ ٙױ פօ և..և. ָ և ָ ֮ ֻ , ֵօ ...(־֮֬)...

.. ׻ֵ : ָ, 㴲և Ù ָ ֓ ?

ֳ֯ן : ֌ ׻֋ , ֯ ך ...(־֮֬)...

.. ׻ֵ : , , ָ ӡ ־ֲ , ־ֲ ? ....(־֮֬)....

ֳ֯ן : ֌ , ֯ ך ...(־֮֬)... ㌻ , ֯ ֌ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ߮-ß֮ ߓ ֮ ֤ ֮֮ ! ß֟ ֮ ֤ ? ...(־֮֬)...

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ֌ ו֋

֕߾ ㌻ : ׻֋ ß֮ ָ ָ ֮ ָ ֮ ֵ֕ ָ ֟ ָ ָ ֟ ß֮ ָ ֻ֯ , ֮ ֻ֯ օ ֟ ֣ ֮ ֟ ִ֯

(ִ֯)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Dr. P.C. Alexander.

DR. P.C. ALEXANDER (MAHARASHTRA): Sir, I feel happy that, at least, after four or five times to make a speech on the subject, I have been able to secure time to do so today. Several speakers have, while making their observations, referred to the general problem of increasing terrorism in our country. Today, I intend to use the time that you have allotted to me to focus the attention of this House to the specific problem which the city of Mumbai faces, and to make a few suggestions as to what the Central Government can do to ensure when calamities like these occur again, they quickly tackle them effectively.

(Contd. by RSS/1t)

RSS/1t/1.10

DR. P.C. ALEXANDER (CONTD.): Every time, a calamity happens in the city, naturally, the whole nation feels about it, express sympathy for the people of Mumbai, who have suffered on account of the calamity, and also express their appreciation of the manner in which the people of Mumbai have been able to cope with the calamity. But, after this expression of sympathy and appreciation, nothing else follows by way of concrete assistance to the people of Mumbai; nothing new happens by way of giving grants or financial support to the Government of Maharashtra, and that is why, I wish to say that whatever has happened in Mumbai, should be viewed as a problem by itself, and not a common problem of other cities as well. In fact, what I want to bring to the attention of this House, is the main theme of my talk, and that is, Mumbai has a special set of problems which, the nation as a whole, will have to understand, with great sympathy. In the first place, we should remember that this is the most attacked city in our country. No city in this country has been attacked so many times by criminals, by extortionists, by underworld dons, by mafia groups and by terrorists, as Mumbai has been attacked. I also want to remind the hon. House that after the very first attack on Mumbai through the serial bomb blasts in February 1993, five such attacks have taken place before the 11th July attack, and therefore, Mumbai has been the victim of attacks over a period of time, and it looks as if it has no respite from terrorists attack today. I wish to highlight certain issues, which make me feel to make this appeal to this House, and to the Home Minister, to treat the case of Mumbai as different from, as distinct from the case of other cities, which would also have suffered from these things. I am saying not merely because of the economic power that Mumbai has been wielding, or the economic power house as it is called, which gives it a special importance. It is a fact that this one city contributes over 60, 000 dollars to the national exchequer a year, but, I am not basing my arguments because of that economic strength or might of this city. This city has other special negative features, which have to be accepted as very important in considering what I would make as my suggestions for meeting them. Sir, this city has a population of 17 million people, according to the Census. But a few more millions account for what is known as the floating population of Mumbai. You will be astonished to know that the density of population of Mumbai City is 13,000 per square km., not 13,000 per square mile, not taking into account the floating population. Every day, 7.5 million people come to Mumbai and go out by the transport facility of train alone. No other city in our country has faced this type of problem or is likely to face. In addition to the general population of the city, 7 to 7.5 million people visit the city every day. Fifty-two per cent of the people of Mumbai live in the most dehumanising conditions in what we call slums. (contd. by 1u)

-RSS/MKS/NB/1.15/1U

DR. P.C. ALEXANDER (CONTD.): But they are veritable hellholes. And that too, 52 per cent of the total population which has been counted in this Census, another seven to nine per cent of the people live on the footpaths of the city, and excluding them from that 52 per cent who live in, what we call, the slums of the city.

Further, this is a city which has a vast coastline which is very poorly defended. A lot of troubles have arisen because of the fact that this coastline has been very poorly monitored. There are four main stages in the deterioration of Mumbai strength and in reducing it to a city of the greatest weakness or the greatest position or the biggest position of being the recipient of attack on forage. This I have to mention particularly because no other city in the world has undergone this type of bitter experience. The first stage was when we had the uncontrolled state of smuggling activities organised by notorious gangs under the leadership of people like Haji Mastan, Vardharaj Mudaliar, Yusuf Patel and others. This is the first stage. That happened in the sixties and seventies. But that was taken over by the next stage, and that was the formation of powerful underworld gangs. And there, you find, their tendency to follow the smuggling activities and narcotic activities of the earlier stage, and adding to that, new crimes like extortion, supari killing, settlement of territorial disputes, settlement of tenancy rights, and there, you find the rise of notorious gangsters like Dawood Ibrahim, Chhota Rajan, Arun Gawli and others.

The third stage of the deterioration of Mumbai's vulnerability was when communalism was injected to the activities of gangsters. During the first three stages, there was no question of communalism; there was no caste involved. But in the third stage, you find the injection of communalism, and they started exploiting the communal weaknesses of one small section of a large number of Muslim community and made them tools to carry out their activities while they remained conveniently in the safe havens in Karachi or in the Middle East. And today, what happened on the 11th of July was the fourth stage, i.e. the introduction of terrorism. So, Mumbai has now come to face not only terrorism but all the three preceding stages, inequities as well added to terrorism. And that is the special problem of Mumbai today or the special cause of this vulnerability.

Now, how do we tackle it? We expect the State Government to be the main agency for tackling it. We have just 40,000 people in the entire police force which is supposed to be protecting the city of Mumbai and dealing with all the crimes that I have mentioned. You would be seeing the pictures, the photographs of these people. These people with nothing more than a lathi in their hands are asked to do hundreds of tasks, protection of VIPs, taking care of petty thefts making sure that public meetings are not disturbed, serving warrants, what not, and, finally, when a calamity of this kind happens, and when it is caused by people who are having most sophisticated weapons of mass destruction in their hands. When they are using dangerous materials like RDX and all that, we have the small police force being asked to attend to all the problems that I narrated earlier. (Contd. by TMV/1W)

-MKS-TMV-AKG/1W/1.20

DR. P.C. ALEXANDER (CONTD.): I want to bring to the notice of the Home Minister specifically that this Police Department in Mumbai, under the instructions of the State Government, had prepared a scheme costing Rs.300 crores to tackle the menace of terrorism that was expected to strike the city. At that time, 11th July had not taken place. This estimate of Rs.300 crores was made last year. Actually, the first estimate cost about Rs.500 odd crores. But the State Government itself had reduced it to Rs.300 crores. But the Home Department and the agencies responsible for recommending this met the people in the Police Department and the Home Department in Mumbai and they almost forced them to reduce the estimate from Rs.300 crores to Rs.130 crores or Rs.140 crores as another estimate. My first request to the hon. Home Minister is....

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL): May I ask whether it was a demand for the money or it was a plan prepared and sent to the Government?

DR. P.C. ALEXANDER: It was a plan prepared with details as to what should be done using this money. Acquisition of sophisticated weapons, creation of new police forces, improvement of the mechanisms available with the Police Department and the State Government for communication, intelligence gathering, counter-intelligence measures,...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I think we shall have to check it.

DR. P. C. ALEXANDER: ... all these measures were taken into account and it was considered that the barest minimum requirement would be Rs.300 crores. I am sorry to inform the House that out of Rs.130 crores which had been approved by the Centre, the actual amount released was only Rs.5 crores.

(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN, PROF. P.J. KURIEN, IN THE CHAIR.)

What did the Police Department and the Government of Maharashtra do? It is not that the rest of it was not promised. The rest remained promised, but the actual release was only Rs.5 crores. I would first request the hon. Home Minister who is thoroughly familiar with the problems that I have mentioned--I have not exaggerated the problems...

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I hope you will be in the House to hear my reply.

DR. P.C. ALEXANDER: I will come back after lunch to hear your reply. I am waiting without lunch to speak. I would request that this amount of Rs.300 crores should be restored. Let us not say that we have other States or other cities also to take into account. Immediately, I would say, apart from granting this Rs.300 crores as an immediate measure, strengthen the Anti-Terrorist Squad in Mumbai. Sir, you will be surprised to know that the Anti-Terrorist Squad which succeeded in arresting a few people already--all credit to them--consists of only 25 people today. You expect a small squad of 25 people to deliver goods or to achieve remarkable success in their work. This Squad should be strengthened adequately at the officer level land at the police level. These are immediate measures. I would suggest as an immediate measure, right this week itself--it is urgent--we have to establish or create facilities for close circuit cameras in all vulnerable points starting with the Gate Way of India. This should be acquired at the quickest possible time. Again, as an urgent step, certain measures which have been followed in the United States after the New York incident and in London should be straightway introduced in Mumbai for checking the vehicles which come to the city. Today they are not able to check unless they stop the vehicles. For commercial purposes people do that type of checking for evasion of taxes and all that. In the western countries, particularly, in the United States and London, the police have acquired the facilities. In a matter of one minute or two minutes a lorry can be checked electronically and they can identify whether that lorry is carrying a weapon or even a criminal along with the goods. These are the most important things which have to be introduced straightway. I would also say that along with that, under the leadership of the Home Ministry, a Special Task Force should be established to make recommendations for long-term measures which are required for the city of Mumbai.

(Contd. by VK/1x)

VK/1X/1.25

DR. P.C. ALEXANDER (CONTD): These long-term measures should deal with the problems like decongestion by transferring certain offices which are located in the city to other parts or cities or towns of Maharashtra; handling the problem of slums. If you cannot remove them, handle the problem of slum improvement in certain places and slum removal in certain other places and prevention of new slums should come into existence. All these are long-term measures; better coordination with the Railways; closer coordination with the Coast Guard. So, a multi-disciplinary task force has to be established. If these things are not handled at your level -- what can be done immediately; what can be done in the long-term -- the Mumbai city will deteriorate. A saying goes that 'crying baby gets the milk'. This baby has been crying for nearly 25-30 years now. If it is not immediately given what I have suggested, the crying baby may become a dying baby. It will not be a misfortune only for the people of Mumbai, it will be a misfortune for the entire nation. I wish to conclude by saying what an illustrious Economist, Harry Johnson said when he started a speech on India. He said, "A country like India....". Then he suddenly stopped and said, "How can there be another country like India? It has its own intensity of problems; it has its own intensity of greatness." In the same way, I say the city like Mumbai should not be a phrase in your vocabulary because there is no city like Mumbai in our country. Treat it as separate. Give it something more than what you think should be given based on the fact that it is one of the cities. Treat it on two plains 'immediate action', 'long range action'. I know that the Home Minister is very sympathetic to the problems of Mumbai. I can only hope that the Finance Ministry and the Prime Minister's Office will consider it necessary to deal with Mumbai's problems, not when a calamity like 11/7 takes place, but today with the utmost urgency and strengthen the hands of the Home Minister himself and the Home Ministry itself to deal with the problem with the urgency that I have placed before you. Thank you. (Ends)

DR. K. MALAISAMY (TAMIL NADU): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak on this subject which could not blast continuously in this House; it could blast intermittently. 'It is better late than never'. I have been listening to the discussion held on the subject by my colleagues on earlier days and I was listening to Dr. Alexander also. It is very much disturbing to note the size and magnitude of the tragedy swallowing more than 200 human lives and injuring more than 700 persons, besides extensive damages and losses. I am unable to understand why Mumbai has been fixed as target again and again. Is it due to the fact that Mumbai happens to be one of the dynamic cities of the world? Or, is it due to the fact that Mumbai is India's commercial and entertainment capital? Or, is it due to the fact that in terms of economic power and in terms of affluence, it is almost comparable to New York? Or, is it due to the accumulative effect of all these factors that terrorists happen to have an eye on Mumbai? Whatever may be the reason, a couple of days after the bomb blasts in Mumbai, as Members of the Parliamentary Committee, we had been to Mumbai. We had the first-hand information and knowledge of the whole tragedy and its aftermath. (Contd. by 1Y)

RG/1.30/1y

DR. K. MALAISAMY (contd.): We were able to see that the city was still reeling in horror and shock; not only that, the panic waves were sweeping all over the city. We saw that people were still in deep anguish and agony, and they were still in a panic kind of a situation. Sir, this is the situation not just in Mumbai but also, in general, of the country as a whole. That is the most disturbing factor. The worrying factor is that such incidents are happening all over. Sir, we learn lessons from events and experiences. But, unfortunately, we do not seem to have learnt lessons from the Mumbai blasts, because this was not the solitary instance. On the other hand, it has experienced as many as eight bomb blasts, out of which five have been of major intensity. It is happening not only in Mumbai, but it is happening elsewhere also. Our hon. Home Minister, who is well-informed and well-equipped might try to say, "Yes; you may say so many things. But the internal security and the law and order situation of the country as a whole is largely under control." He might also try to explain to us saying, "The situations in Jammu and Kashmir, North-Eastern States and in some of the Naxalite-prone States may cause concern to us. But, the incidents of violence and the number of killings as a whole are on the decline after the UPA Government has taken over." We may take all these statements in good spirit. It can give us a sigh of relief. But I have got my own doubts as to whether your measures, your initiatives and the steps taken by you are adequate, timely enough and consistent. You have to ask this of yourself. Such incidents are repeatedly happening here and there. The whole country is restless; the whole country is perturbed. In such a situation, what do we do? If I may say so, there is something wrong somewhere. Mr. Narayanasamy will pounce on me if I use my management term that there is a system failure or a human failure or both. I want to know whether it is a system failure or a human failure or both. I need not be mistaken if I ask: Does this not warrant that you have an overview of the entire situation afresh and have an overall re-look in terms of your objectives, in terms of your organisation, in terms of your manpower, in terms of your operations, etc.? According to me, you need a total overview of the entire situation.

Sir, I would quickly go into some of the aspects. We all know very well that the terrorists are based in Pakistan, Pakistan-Occupied-Kashmir and Bangladesh. Terrorism is sponsored from across the border, and these elements are assisted by the ISI. Every one of us know that the object of the ISI is to create uneasiness; they want to create dissatisfaction among the Indian nationals. Not just that, they want to destabilise the entire country. That is their objective, and they are ably assisted in this. The terrorists, who are on the job, are very smart, intelligent, well-trained and committed to their job. I am sorry to say that our security forces and other agencies cannot match them in terms of their intelligence, in terms of their action and in terms of their commitment. What I am trying to say is that when you make a short analysis, when you say, "I am analysing my strengths; I am analysing my weaknesses; I am analysing my opportunities; I am analysing my threats", when you analyse them on one side, you have to analyse the sword of the other side, of the opponents, the terrorists. That is when you will know how you can match them, where you are lacking, where you are strong and how you can match them. (Continued by 1Z)

TDB/1Z/1.35

DR. K. MALAISAMY (CONTD.): This is my second point. Thirdly, Sir, the most worrying factor is -- there is one more factor -- it is not only the problem of terrorists coming from across the border but the terrorists are also being bred within our own country. This is the most disturbing factor, Sir.

Sir, now I come to the remedial measures. As I said earlier, the Government needs a comprehensive outlook in dealing with this problem. Coming to the specific style of functioning...(Interruptions)... Sir, I am speaking on behalf of the AIADMK Party which is the fourth largest party in this House.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): I don't dispute that. ...(Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: The way the Chair was looking at me, I thought that I should speed up my presentation or whatever.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I don't dispute that. But the only point is, there are 20 speakers.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Okay; I will touch the main points.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Otherwise, your other friends will not get the time. That is all.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, coming to the specific style of functioning of the great UPA Government, I am told that the UPA Government in dealing with this problem is lacking political will and executing skill. Not only that, they lack...(Interruptions)... I am told...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Mr. Narayanasamy, this is his view. Why do you worry?

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, the next day, there was normal life in Mumbai. That is the political will of our Government. You should understand this. ...(Interruptions)... That is a different matter. But, he should not accuse like this.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Mr. Narayanasamy, you should first listen and then react.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That is only his view.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: But, he should not accuse us unnecessarily. ...(Interruptions)... Without knowing the facts, he should not accuse anybody.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, I was so cautious in using my words. I said, 'I am told'.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Dr. Malaisamy, please address the Chair. ...(Interruptions)... Don't reply to him. If you do so, you will lose your time. ...(Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Okay. Sir, I am saying so because instead of confronting an issue, they are taking a cajoling attitude; instead of coercing an issue, they are coaxing an issue. This is the difference that is being seen. Sir, instead of dealing at the source of the problem, they are dealing at the periphery. These are all my observations. Let them reply. To deal with a vital issue like this, they must employ all their resources at one stroke, instead of giving a piecemeal solution.

Sir, Dr. P.C. Alexander rightly said that there is the problem of non-coordination between various agencies, namely, the RAW, IB, the State Government and the Central Government. I am not going into all that. The very important aspect is, non-availability of data. What I am trying to say is, more than 12000 Pakistani nationals are over-staying in India, and 2500 of them have gone underground. What happened to them? What are their whereabouts? The Government has no information, in this regard. Is the Government aware of it?

Sir, the next point is, non-implementation of recommendations of the Task Force set up by the NDA Government. The Task Force had given a lot of... Sir, I will finish in four-five minutes.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): No. Your party had eight minutes, but you have taken ten minutes. You have already taken two minutes more. Conclude in two minutes.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, I am raising a very important point. Sir, world-over special legislations are in existence to deal with a specific problem like this. Unfortunately, the POTA has been withdrawn. This has given a wrong signal to the country at large for the simple reason that it has given morale boost to the terrorists, whereas the security forces are demoralised.

Sir, coming to the IB, I would like to say that the job of the IB is to search out intelligence on matters like this. But, now they are tracking on the opposition party and opposition leaders, and most of their time is spent only on that. Sir, we have got excellent trained commandos. But, they are not being used to fight against terrorists. On the other hand, they are being used to guard the VIPs.

Sir, please give me a few more minutes to speak about the most important aspect of this. Sir, in our system, terrorist elements, mafia elements and other anti-social elements are being encouraged by the ruling party or by the set up. What I am trying to say is, a few years back, Sir, you are aware of this, a big serial blast had happened in Coimbatore. What happened was, 58 people died in that blast.

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: That case is going on. We should not discuss about that in this House. ...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): He is not talking about that case. ...(Interruptions)... He is not talking about that case. You please take your seat. ...(Interruptions)... (Contd. by kls/2a)

KLS/2A-1.45

DR. K. MALAISAMY: I am not discussing it at all. ...((Interruptions)... I will be the last person to do that. ...((Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI S.G. INDIRA: He is only quoting the incident. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: He does not need your support. ...((Interruptions)...Your time is over.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Only two-three minutes. ....((Interruptions)... When I say it, I will abide by it. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You take two-three minutes more and then finish your point. ...((Interruptions)... Do not disturb him. ...((Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: You have been considerate to me. ...((Interruptions)... The prime accused is known as Mr. Madani and sixty other Al-Umma prisoners were lodged in Coimbatore jail. Now, what happened is that the great C.M. of Tamil Nadu with the recommendations of others...((Interruptions)...

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: He is speaking out of context. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: He has a right to say what he wants to say. ...((Interruptions)... Please refute it when your turn comes.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, a team of Ayurvedic doctors, massage men ...((Interruptions)... It has been funded by ...((Interruptions)...

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: This is out of context. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): You can refute it when your turn comes. ...((Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: He has converted the jail into a massage club. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Why do you make it an issue? ...((Interruptions)... Do not make it an issue.

SHRI R. SHUNMUGASUNDARAM: How can we discuss about it here?

...((Interruptions)... This is not according to your ruling...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: He is not criticising any court order. ...((Interruptions)... He is only saying ....((Interruptions)... Please conclude. ...((Interruptions)... Dr. Malaisamy, please conclude. ...((Interruptions)... Your time is over. ...((Interruptions)... You have already taken four minutes more. ...((Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: I do not come to the Well of the House. ...((Interruptions)... I am a most disciplined person. ...((Interruptions)... Why should he interfere like this? ...((Interruptions)...I am also capable of using my throat. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please conclude. ...((Interruptions)... You have already taken four minutes more than your time. ...((Interruptions)... Your party was given 8 minutes and you have already taken 12 mintues.

DR. K. MALAISAMY: There are only a few points that I want to highlight. ...((Interruptions)... Terrorists are being assisted by the ruling party of a State. ...((Interruptions)... They have converted a jail into a massage club. ...((Interruptions)... Tomorrow this is going to happen ...((Interruptions)... What I am trying to say is that instead of being very tough with these people, they are going to... (Time-bell)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please take your seat. ...((Interruptions)... Shrimati Durga. ...((Interruptions)... Your time is over. ...((Interruptions)... You have said everything. ...((Interruptions)... You have taken 12 minutes instead of 8 minutes. ....((Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, I rarely seek your permission...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Take one minute more. ...((Interruptions)... Come to the next point. ....((Interruptions)... You spoke about that. ...((Interruptions)... Come to the next point. ...((Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Coimbatore point is a very important point, Sir.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You have already explained that. ...((Interruptions)... Why do you repeat it? ...((Interruptions)... That point is over now. ...((Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Okay, I leave Coimbatore. ...((Interruptions)... Sir, the point is how a ruling party can afford to help an accused in a bomb blast case. ...((Interruptions)... Today it is in Coimbatore case, tomorrow it can be in Mumbai case. ...This is a very important point that I want to make. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please support the Chair. ...((Interruptions)... I was supporting you all the time. ...((Interruptions)... You have to support me now. ...(Interruptions)... You please take your seat. ...(Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: You have been nice to me but I am yet to finish my speech. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: There are 20 speakers more. ...((Interruptions)... Please take your seat. ...((Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: It is only touch and go on the measures because Dr. Alexander has been very detailed. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Now, please take your seat. ...((Interruptions)... (Time-bell) Shrimati Durga. ...((Interruptions)...

DR. K. MALAISAMY: I request the hon. Home Minister that while strengthening the infrastructure ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): You said that you always obey the Chair. ...((Interruptions)... Why are you not doing this now? ...((Interruptions)...

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: If you yield for a moment ...((Interruptions)... Just one second. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: There is no question of his yielding. ...((Interruptions)... His time is already over. ...((Interruptions)...

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: He is yielding. ...((Interruptions)... Sir, my question is if we are discussing such an important aspect of terror where the country's existence is concerned, why can't we extend the time and the number of speakers?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: It is for the House to decide. ...((Interruptions)...

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: Let us take the sense of the House. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: It is for the House to decide. ...((Interruptions)...

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: I do not understand it. ...(Interruptions)... Let's sit on Sunday. ...((Interruptions)... Instead of that, we are curtailing it. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: It is for the House to decide. ...((Interruptions)... You are in the panel of Vice-Chairmen, Mr. Trivedi and you yourself know the constraints. ...((Interruptions). (Contd by 2B)

-KLS-SSS/2B/1.45

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: As an ordinary Member also I have a right to speak. It is such an important discussion. We talk about terror and we want to concise this. If somebody has an important point...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): Yes, Shrimati Durga, please start. I allowed him to make his important point.

SHRIMATI N. P. DURGA (ANDHRA PRADESH): Sir, at the outset, I convey my deepest condolences on behalf of my party and on my own behalf to this horrifying successive blasts in different trains of Mumbai's Western Local Line killing 184 people and injuring nearly 850 people. I also express my heartfelt condolences to the people who have died in Srinagar blasts. I confine my remarks only to these two incidents. I am utterly disappointed after going through the statement by hon. Home Minister, since the statement contains nothing but superfluous words. There is no mention as to why intelligence has failed. There is no mention as to how RDX, Ammonium Nitrate and fuel oil sneaked into first class railway compartments. There is no mention about the failure of the RPF which is supposed to frisk every passenger and his baggage before he enters into the station. Sir, I would like to know from the hon. Minister whether it is true that according to the forensic reports there is a striking similarity between the Varanasi blasts and the serial Mumbai blasts since there is a similarity between the explosives used, the modus operandi, the days they have selected -- Tuesdays on both the occasions -- and the time they have chosen i.e., between 6.00 P.M. and 6.30 P.M., explosives were planted in handbags and left behind in both the cases. If, 'yes', whether the Anti Terrorist Squad is moving in that direction to solve this case. The next point I wish to make is: just a couple of months ago i.e., in May this year the Anti-terror Task Force cracked down on terror cells in Mumbai. The blasts clearly show that these crackdowns on a few cells did not deter terrorists to desist their plan. In fact, the way it has been executed clearly shows that they are able to attack with more vigour and ease. I wish to know where the lacuna is. I would like to know whether the ATF failed in its operation to clean up these cells or the so-called clean up is only an eyewash. I wish to know this from the hon. Minister. Sir, the next point on which I seek information from the hon. Minister is, what are the plans the Railways have for Internet Protocol TV Network in all zones of the Railways to avoid recurrence of such blasts in other railway zones. I would like to know whether the Maharashtra Government or the Government of India is aware that large quantities of explosives meant for road building construction in Afghanistan are missing from ships off the Mumbai Port. If, 'yes', what have the State and the Union Governments done to recover them? Sir, to my mind, the attacks at Mumbai and Srinagar have been carried out to cripple Mumbai's lifeline; and tourism industry at Srinagar and the attempt is to hit our economic base. Sir, I am not in favour of repealing POTA. Yes, I agree that this powerful Act might have been misused. But, how the present Home Minister, who is a very senior Member of the Cabinet, agrees with the argument that since POTA was misused, it should be repealed. If that is the argument he buys, there are umpteen Acts on our Statute Book which are being misused. Are you repealing them all? No. But the repeal of POTA has given a clear, unambiguous signal to Jehadis and their patrons that they can do as they wish without any let or hindrance. This has been done by this UPA Government just for a fistful of votes! So, I urge that if not POTA, you enact another law for God's sake, give it another name, and deal with these spineless creatures, who are crippling the development of our country. Sir, the next point I wish to know from the hon. Minister is whether it is true that IB had given a tip to Mumbai police about RDX and arms consignment to the State. But, in spite of getting the tip from the IB, the leads have not been followed. If, 'yes', what are the reasons behind this? Who are behind this non-follow up of these leads from IB? And, what the Ministry has done in this regard against the errant police officials. And, whether it is also true that there are as many as ten agencies tracking terrorists, apart from IB, which collects information on terrorists. Whether it is also true that there is a lack of coordination between all the ten agencies, which are tracking terrorists, and the results are heart-breaking and mind-boggling. If so, what is the Ministry doing in this regard? (Contd. by KGG/2C)

kgg/2c/1.50

SHRIMATI N.P. DURGA (contd.): Sir, the hon. Minister spoke about compensation. I agree that you cannot bring back the life by paying money. Here, I wish to seek a small clarification from the hon. Minister. The Minister said that so far Rs.3.52 crores has been paid as ex-gratia. I wish to know whether this amount also includes the Rs.5 lakhs announced by the hon. Railway Minister. This may be clarified.

Finally, I do not want to go into all recommendations made by the Task Force set up in 2000 for revamping the intelligence apparatus. I only wish to know as to what are the reasons for not implementing a coordination mechanism in each State under the leadership of the IB? This important recommendation has not been implemented for six years, Sir. I would like to know why this recommendation has not been implemented and what the Government of India is doing to make the States implement this.

So, Sir, just do not try to pacify us after these twelve blasts -- five in Srinagar and seven in Mumbai -- by saying that investigation is going on and until we get the report, we cannot go ahead. The Government should realise and understand that there is something grossly wrong with our domestic intelligence apparatus. There is a need to overhaul the entire intelligence apparatus and there is also a need to inject fresh blood into it. Otherwise, there will be no end to such horrific crimes on humanity. Thank you. (Ends)

DR. CHANDAN MITRA (NOMINATED): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, thank you very much indeed. Many of us are waiting for three days to give our views in the matter and much has already been said. So, I shall try to be as brief as possible. So, the point has been made by many earlier speakers but I would just like to reiterate again that there is a major issue of intelligence which is at the root of what has happened in Mumbai and, unless, very serious steps are taken with regard to the intelligence failure, we are likely to see many such incidents again in the future. I would like to know from the Home Minister, Sir, what steps the Government is proposing to take, to beef up the intelligence mechanism of the security forces because that is the key to preventing such incidents in the future. Because, without adequate intelligence information in advance, it is almost impossible, especially in cities like Mumbai or Delhi or in other places like Varanasi where we had such incidents. It is virtually impossible to act. For the police to be present in every spot, to scan every bag, to scan every passenger, is not physically possible.

So, unless we have adequate information, there is going to be a serious problem recurring. And, in this context, Sir, I wish to point out that very often, matters seem to get handled in an extremely amateurish manner. I recall that after the Mumbai blast, the Mumbai Police gave out that the prime suspect, the master mind in this was somebody by the name Rahil, who lived in a flat in Mahim in Mumbai. This news appeared in newspapers the following day, and two days later we also found in the same newspapers a report again with reference to sources in the Mumbai Police that this certain Rahil, who is supposed to be a very well networked terrorist with connections in the ISI and the Hujim of Bangladesh, this Rahil managed to escape by jumping off the second floor balcony when the police surrounded his Mahim residence.

Sir, I know that it may not be possible to nab every wanted or anybody who is a suspected terrorist, but if the police have such suspicion, if there are instances where you know that some people are masterminding or networking the entire terrorist apparatus, why is preventive custody not considered for these people? If there are laws that come in the way, why are these laws not strengthened? Preceding speakers have talked about the need for stronger laws. I do not want to go into the issue of POTA. This Government has some serious problems in this regard. But, Sir, I would only appeal to the Home Minister that at a time when every Government, all over the world, is strengthening the anti-terrorism laws, is it not a fact that we also need to strengthen rather than dilute anti-terrorism legislations in this country? (Contd. by nbr/2d)

 

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