SHRI PRAVEEN RASHTRAPAL (CONTD.): But, we are very sorry to know that no action has been taken till date. But the issue is not that simple. The issue regarding the list of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes is a very complex issue. When we want to amend article 341 and article 342 of the Constitution, we have to be very careful because once you make an amendment in articles 341 and 342, it will not be applicable to a particular State. It will be applicable to the whole of India. Sir, according to my information, the first list of the Scheduled Castes, on the basis of history, on the basis of religion, on the basis of tradition, on the basis of customs, was first prepared by the first Census Commission, either in the year 1910 or 1930, and the Commission was known as the Sathe Commission. The Commission has laid down ten criteria for selecting a citizen of this country and to know whether he belongs to a Scheduled Caste or a Scheduled Tribe community or not. If he satisfies all the ten criteria, then, he will be included in the list of the Scheduled Castes. That was the Constitutional requirement because in those days it was the Government of India Act, 1920. Subsequently, it was improved to the Government of India Act, 1935 because the country was ruled by the Britishers by an Act, and there was no Constitution in this country. This list was prepared in the year 1930. It was adopted in the Government of India Act 1935 and when we became free in the year 1947 and when the Constituent Assembly was formed to frame the Constitution of the country, which we adopted on 26th January 1950, the great Father of the Constitution, Dr. B.R. Ambedkar in the company of Babu Jagjeevan Ram prepared a list taking into consideration all the Scheduled Caste Members and all the Scheduled Tribe Members in the Constituent Assembly and it was finally approved by the leaders of this country, like, the then president, Dr. Rajendra Prasad, and by Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru etc. That list of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes was the first list dated 26th January, 1950 and it was signed by the President of India. And according to the Constitutional requirement, the list can be amended only by the Parliament. It cannot be amended by the State Assembly. So, the suggestion made by one of my colleagues, or, some of my colleagues that let the State Government decide the issue is not proper. The list of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes in this country cannot be amended and should not be amended by any State Government. It has to be amended only by the Parliament. I request my colleagues that there are certain procedural formalities for making amendment to the list of any State or the list of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. ..(Interruptions)... I will come to that. The list as prepared by various State Governments in those days was adopted as the national list. But, as far as the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes list is concerned, once it was finalised on 26th January 1950, amendment can be made as requested by the State Government, as approved by the Registrar of India, as approved by the National Commission of the Scheduled Castes, as approved by the National Commission of the Scheduled Tribes, and then, a Bill has to be prepared by the concerned Ministry and produced before the Parliament.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Who will take the initiative? Will it be taken by the State Government?

SHRI PRAVEEN RASHTRAPAL: The initiative has to be taken by the respective State Governments; it cannot be taken by any citizen. So, what I want is that the State Government concerned, I will mention here the State Governments of Assam, Tripura and West Bengal, should first take up the matter with the National Commission of the Scheduled Castes and the National Commission of the Scheduled Tribes, and the Registrar General of India. These are Constitutional functionaries.

(Continued by 2P/PK)


SHRI PRAVEEN RASHTRAPAL (CONTD.): So, they will write to the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment, the Ministry of Tribal Affairs to prepare the Bill for a constitutional amendment, as we have done in Gujarat. I will give you an example of what happened in Gujarat. By an error, the Parliament also committed a small error in the year 1977, and a particular caste of Gujarat, which was not Scheduled Caste, was by mistake included in the list of Scheduled Castes, because the area restriction was removed. A particular sub-caste was Scheduled Caste only for a particular district, and because the area restriction was removed, they became Scheduled Caste all over the State. The entire Scheduled Caste of the Gujarat Government opposed, the State Assembly also opposed, that all over Gujarat they do not belong to Scheduled Caste, only in a particular district they belong to Scheduled Caste. So, area restriction should be re-imposed. It took 27 years to make amendments in spite of the efforts of entire State Assembly and the Government of Gujarat. Here, I complain, and I go on record that we do talk about Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, we do make many announcements -- when I say 'we', I refer to all Governments, whether it is this Government, or, the previous Government, or the Government before 20 years, or, 30 years -- but let me tell you that priority is not given to the matter concerning the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, when it comes to legislate. I was a Member of the Parliamentary Committee on Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes during the Thirteenth Lok Sabha, and I had the opportunity, or, rather the Committee had the opportunity of inviting the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment, and the Department of Personnel, and we requested them to tell us whether they are the nodal Ministry for the matter of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. Sir, I am very sorry to inform you that all these Ministries told us that they were not the Nodal Ministry as far as the matters concerning the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes are concerned. Sir, according to my information, in the good olden days, during 50's, 60's, the Ministry of Home Affairs -- it was considered next to Prime Minister-- was the nodal Ministry for the affairs concerning the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. After some years, that vanished, and now the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment itself is also not the nodal Ministry for the Scheduled Castes; the Ministry of Tribal Affairs itself is not the nodal Ministry for Tribal Affairs. That we experienced during the Thirteenth Lok Sabha when various constitutional amendments were carried out by the Department of Personnel and OMs were issued against the rights of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes without consulting the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment and also the National Commission for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. This is an anomaly. So, I will request the Government of today also to first appoint a Ministry as a nodal Ministry for the affairs of the Scheduled castes, for the affairs of the Scheduled Tribes, so that that Ministry will be fully in charge as far as the matters concerning the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes are concerned.

Secondly, I want to inform the Government that one of the biggest States in the country -- and I am not criticising the States, but I will have to name for the sake of information of the Government -- the Government is supposed to know, but if they are not aware, let me tell them -- Uttar Pradesh has made certain amendments in the list of the Scheduled Castes without permission from the Central Government, without obtaining approval from the Registrar General of India, without obtaining approval from the National Commission for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, and the matter is pending in the Supreme Court or High Court of Delhi. This is a very serious matter. Similarly, as one of my senior colleagues referred to the issue of dalit Christians and dalit Muslims, that issue is also pending before the Supreme Court. (Contd. by 2Q/PB)


SHRI PRAVEEN RASHTRAPAL (CONTD.): And, the Government of India is fighting on behalf of the Governor. The issue is not simple, because the situation in this country is such. In fact, one should aim to go higher and higher. If I am a Group B employee, I should demand the post of Group A. But, in this country, as far as the social structure is concerned, now people say that we want to become Scheduled Castes, and this is something very serious which cannot be digested. In fact, I would like to become a Brahmin. But will you give me the right of Brahmins? And, if I don't get, will you protect me? I mean, it is very difficult to become Brahmin, and I am very sorry, nobody demands in this country that I may be considered as Brahmin. But thousands and thousands of people belonging to different religions, other than Hindu religion, are demanding before the learned Supreme Court that they may be treated as Scheduled Castes. I have sympathy for that. But the problem, as has been rightly pointed out by my colleague from Eastern sector is, on the one side, the Supreme Court has also decided that all reservations, put together, should not go beyond fifty per cent, and on the other side, the Government in power, whether it is the State Government or the Central Government, is deciding the percentage of reservation on the basis of population. Now, you tell me, suppose in a State, there is a population of Scheduled Castes, which is forty per cent and the population of Scheduled Tribes, which is thirty per cent, the reservation should be seventy per cent. It is that simple. I don't understand how the Supreme Court can decide that reservation should not exceed fifty per cent. I mean, there is no logic behind it. But, again, as nobody can challenge the Supreme Court, nobody can challenge the Parliament also. Now, there is a great problem all over the country, and that is why, with due respect, there will be difference of opinion; the poor will oppose poor. The present Scheduled Castes will not like that their list should increase, because the Census will count population on the basis of Scheduled Caste Hindus. There cannot be Scheduled Castes among Islam; there cannot be Scheduled Castes among Christianity. Mahatma Gandhi had also said in those days, 'once you leave Hinduism, it is your decision, you have gone to a particular religion. Now, again when you come back and say that there is discrimination within that religion, then you must approach the head of that religion because, according to their scriptures, there cannot be discrimination.' At least, in this religion, there are old days scriptures where there were discrimination. So, the Scheduled Castes are getting benefit being untouchables in those days, and let us not discuss that. Even now, we have untouchables in the rural India. But, let me restrict to this very issue. It is a very complex issue. I will request the Government of India one thing, I mean, with due respect. I fully agree with the Mover of the Bill. The issue is very serious as far as Assam, West Bengal and Tripura is concerned. They belong to Scheduled Castes; they belong to Scheduled Tribes of their original State. They were poor and were brought by the then Government for doing a particular work in difficult areas. Now, the Scheduled Tribe status is always given on the basis of area. It should be a hilly area; it should be a forest area; it should be specific. Now, there is no religion, as far as Scheduled Tribe is concerned. A man belonging to Christian, a man belonging to Islam, a man belonging to Hindu religion can be a Scheduled Tribe. But that is not the case when we come to Scheduled Castes. There cannot be Scheduled Castes in any other religion, other than Hindu, and we need not discuss that. We know the reason. Sir, we know the reason. So, it is a very complex issue. So, there should not be difficulty in accepting them as Scheduled Tribes because tea is always planted in an area where there are hills, where there are mountains, and if you permanently stay there, you are a Scheduled Tribe. If you are born in that area, you are a Scheduled Tribe. So, that way, the issue of Eastern sector requires specific attention.

(Contd. by 2r/SKC)


SHRI PRAVEEN RASHTRAPAL (CONTD.): It is really a serious problem as far as Assam, West Bengal and Tripura are concerned. It is to be solved in that manner. Now, the three State Governments and the Government of India could discuss how to solve the problem together. They may come to a decision and find a solution. But, if you are going to amend Articles 341 and 342, then, once again, Government of India must appoint a commission, which should again go into details. And, for the information of the Government, right now, there are nearly 1200 entries waiting to be included in the list of Scheduled Castes. Hundreds of castes in the country have made applications saying that they may be included in the list of Scheduled Castes; it is not a matter of one or two.

Sir, the biggest amendment in the list of Scheduled Castes took place during the year 1977. After that, the Government of India, whosoever was in power, have not attended to this very difficult, very unpopular and very complex issue. And, it is not the job of politicians alone. It requires social activists, religious leaders and senior bureaucrats. It requires men who are residing in the area, who are residing in the State, to sit together and decide. They will have to travel all over the country, consult lots of people, know about the customs, traditions, races, and, as one of my colleagues very rightly suggested, the condition of those people in a particular State. Then only you can decide that a particular caste should be considered as Scheduled Caste or a particular tribe should be considered as Scheduled Tribe and included in the list.

Reference was also made, indirectly, to reservation. There again, it is not that qualified persons are not available. I have put questions to all Ministries in the present session of Parliament, as to what is the position as far as reservation, implementation and backlog of vacancies. I have got information pertaining to one particular department; the hon. Minister is also present here. According to information available with me pertaining to the Department of Legal Affairs, as on 1st January, 2006, there are 358 officers in Group B. The percentage of total employees is only 0.84 as far as Scheduled Tribes are concerned. A requirement of the Constitution says that it should be 8 per cent. The percentage of Scheduled Caste Officers is only 0.5 as against the requirement of 5 per cent. Now, we come to Group C. It constitutes only clerks; you don't require Doctors and Engineers for Group C! The total number of employees is 577; the percentage of Scheduled Castes is only 4.33 as against 15 per cent; the percentage of Scheduled Tribess is only 0.69 as against 8 per cent. Now, do we assume that even clerks are not available among Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes? These figures were readily available; these are the latest figures. This is the position in all the departments. There is no will; there is no attempt to fill up the backlog. This is in spite of requests from the most senior person of the Government, the most respected, Prime Minister of the country, who has written D.O. letters to all Ministers saying that the backlog of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes should be filled in on or before December 2005. We will be reaching December 2006 very soon; but, the backlog, as it stood in the month of April 2004, has not been filled by any Ministry of this Government. This is not an ordinary issue. And, in one of the biggest Ministries, the Ministry of Railways, there is a backlog of 15,000 posts. It is not in recruitment; it is in promotion. Now, what do you require for promotion? -- My friends belonging to the bureaucracy are sitting here -- it requires only Departmental Promotion Committee. It does not require advertisement; it does not involve any expenditure and it is very easy to fill up the backlog of promotion; Group B should be promoted to Group A and Group C should be promoted to Group B. There are about 15,000 vacancies. Ministries such as those of Defence, Finance, Health and Family Welfare and many other ministries are not even giving me the figures. Let me tell that priorities should be given.

(Contd. by 2s)


SHRI PRAVEEN RASHTRAPAL (CONTD.): This House is aware about the Bill introduced by the Ministry of DOPT regarding reservation Act. It is more than one year since the Bill was introduced in Rajya Sabha. It was referred to the Standing Committee. The Standing Committee has already sent a Report. But no attempt has been made to introduce that Bill and we are not able to pass it. If this is the priority given to the issues of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, there is no end to it. This is also a very serious issue. It requires attention of the highest authority. It is not only the job of the Ministry of Social Justice or the Ministry of Tribal Affairs. They cannot do this work alone. This is an issue concerning the Constitution of India. It requires amendment in the Constitution. It has to be referred to the Law Ministry; it should go to the Prime Minister. Who will do all these formalities? I will request the present Government of India to pay appropriate attention so that justice is done to the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes as far as the correction of the list and issues concerning their welfare are concerned. The National Common Minimum Programme is not a common minimum programme of a political party. It has now become a programme of the Government of India. On the booklet, it is 'National Common Minimum Programme of the Government of India'. All these issues are written there in the book. Assurances are given. We have already completed two years. We are running the third year. I request at this stage also that appropriate attention may be given. My colleague, who has introduced the Bill, is perfectly right in introducing this Bill. Since it is a Constitutional Amendment, the Government may kindly give an assurance on the floor of the House that the Bill will be introduced by the Government in due course and then he can be requested to withdraw the Bill. Thank you. (Ends)

SHRI N. JOTHI (TAMIL NADU): Thank you, Sir. Sir, I thank Shri Condpan for having brought this Bill. Sir, even after nearly 57 years of Independence, we are struggling for the inclusion of certain SCs and STs in the list of respective States. This is the first problem that we are facing. The second problem is that a person who is a Scheduled Caste or a Scheduled Tribe in a State is not recognised in another State. A forward-community person in one State is a forward-community person in another State; a Hindu in one State is a Hindu in another State. But a Scheduled Caste person in one State cannot be a Scheduled Caste person in another State. Why is this discrimination? Our forefathers who have propounded this Constitution might have thought that in the years to come there may not be a necessity for any differentiation among the people in the country. Unfortunately, it still persists. We have now to look into the matter and redress the issue. Sir, I belong to a Dravidian party -- All India Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazagham. It is a Dravidian party. It has its leanings towards Thanthai Periyar and Periyar Ramasami, who propounded a party wherein he questioned, 'Where is God?' Please prove that there is a God. He has questioned this. According to him, there is no God. We are all followers of him. When there is no God at all, where is the community; where is caste; where is sub-caste? It is very unfortunate. When there is a question relating to God itself is there, then where is the question of community or caste? It is a shame in this 21st Century that we still discriminate people on the basis of caste and community, especially Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. It is a legacy of the Vedic concept. It is very unfortunate. Our Hindu religion has brought this. Unfortunately, people are not thinking on that. It is very sad. I really thank my friend for having brought this Bill. (Contd. by 2t/KSK)


SHRI N. JOTHI (CONTD): Sir, let us examine this deeply. Sir, articles 341 and 342 respectively are for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. Sir, it says that a list should be prepared separately for each State. That list may not be applicable to other States. Now, for example, Tamil-speaking States are Pondicherry and Tamil Nadu. The list prepared in Pondicherry is not applicable to Tamil Nadu. Sir, a community as Scheduled Caste in Pondicherry, a Tamil-speaking person in Pondicherry, is not a Scheduled Caste person in Tamil Nadu. It is really unfortunate. We cannot permit it. Now, even no discussions are required. I hope Law Minister will immediately respond to this to bring a Constitution Amendment. For so many ordinary matters, Constitution Amendments are brought in, and for this vital matter, I don't know why so much discussion is required even now. Sir, no doubt, there is misuse and abuse in obtaining caste certificates. As a lawyer, I have my own experience. Sir, in Tamil Nadu, a particular community called 'Reddiar' is a forward community. A particular community called 'Konda Reddy' is in the Scheduled Tribe list. So, many forward community people, for the purpose of joining medical college and to get employment, just add one word 'Konda Reddy'. They are 'Reddiar' already; they add prefix 'Konda Reddy' and march over the genuine people. So, an amendment was brought during my leader's period, Dr. MGR's period, that certificate should be issued by not less than Deputy Collector. So, safeguard was given. Similarly, there is a community called 'Naidu', a forward community. There is a particular community called 'Naidee'. All 'Naidus' now want to become 'Naidees' so that Scheduled Caste benefit can be obtained. Of course, these are all the problems. But, in the Supreme Court, in two judgements, one Lavarda Giri vs. Andhra Pradesh, and another is Madhuri Patil vs. State of Maharashtra, Justice K. Ramaswamy had given the judgement. He said that if any deviation from regular obtaining of certificate is being made by a person in a fake manner, or if anybody obtains a false certificate, he gave ten guidelines. If anybody violates them, he should be prosecuted and put to jail. This is the ruling of the Supreme Court. More than 15 years have now passed, and no law has been made by this Parliament to make it punishable by any penal provision. Those judgements have become dead letters now. He gave ten guidelines on how to stop any non-genuine person from obtaining certificates. What are the safeguards to be made? He gave ten guidelines in those two judgements. Both the judgements were delivered by him. He finally said that if a person obtains a certificate by false means, he should be prosecuted and put to jail. But, nobody cares about it; nobody bothers about it and all kinds of talks are there for their own development and Scheduled Caste improvement. It is very sad. A situation has come where we should take the Bill further to remedy the situation. Sir, there is another judgement of Supreme Court which has dealt with this issue that unless there is an amendment by the Parliament, it is not possible. A judgement of the Supreme Court about three years ago has said that unilaterally, a State Government cannot include any community either in the Scheduled Caste List or the Scheduled Tribe List. It should be only by a Presidential Order with the concurrence of the State Government. Sir, that is the issue as on today. Unless articles 341 and 342 are amended as prayed by my colleague, it is not possible. So, the order of the day now is that they must bring in an amendment in the Constitution to remedy the problems of our own brothers. Sir, they have been suppressed for three thousand years. Fortunately, Tamil Nadu is an oasis in the desert of India. We have 69 per cent reservation, piloted and passed by my leader, Dr. J. Jayalalitha, and also included in the Ninth Schedule of the Constitution in item 257A. It is there in the Ninth Schedule as item No. 257A. The title of the Act is - 'The Tamil Nadu Backward Classes, Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Reservation of Seats in Educational Institutions and of appointments or posts in the Services under the State) Act, 1993'. (continued by 2u)


SHRI N. JOTHI (CONTD.): This has been made as an Act. The Supreme Court stayed even this Act. Under the guise of creamy layer position, 50 per cent alone is now allowed. To get over that, supernumerary posts are now created and we are now performing it in our State. Sir, Tamil Nadu..(Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, this 69 per cent reservation is continuing there for the last thirty-five years, since DMK regime and thereafter. It is not their innovation.

SHRI N. JOTHI: I am sorry. If he does not know the history, what can I do?

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: I know the history. (Interruptions)

SHRI N. JOTHI: I am very sorry. In that case, how could it be included in the Ninth Schedule? You don't want to give it any credit, what can I do? All right. Sir. The first amendment to the Constitution that was adopted by our country, was due to a communal G.O. issued in Tamil Nadu. For the first amendment to the Constitution, we are the reason, that too on community reasons. Sir, while appreciating Mr. Silvius on this matter, I also request him to visit Tamil Nadu and see how we are moving as brothers. I am a Tamilian. I have no caste feelings. My friend, Narayanasamy will, at least, understand that. We feel shy in adding our community name with us. Whereas, in very many States, I see that next to the name, the community name automatically comes. I don't want to give examples. People may feel little hurt on that. The community name automatically follows the name of a person whereas in Tamil Nadu, we feel shy on this and by seeing the name, nobody can understand to which community a person belongs. We never ask a person's community. He feels insulted. Sir, to that extent, we have come forward.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: At least, as far as the 'Thevar' community is concerned, we understand that in their name 'Thevar' will also come.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, he cannot keep quiet. What can I do? That is why, I pray that he should be made a Minister so that he can be elsewhere; he won't be here. I can recommend one or two portfolios for him also so that he can be sent away from the House. I am very sorry. What should I do...(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, let the hon. Member tell us, in the Thevar community, the word 'Thevar' also comes in their names or not. Let him say, 'No'. Let him say in the House that it is not there. He has been...(Interruptions)

SHRI N. JOTHI: Sir, when I am talking about the glory of Tamil Nadu, he is envious on that because he is a little away. He is a little away from Tamil Nadu and that is why he is feeling very envious. We have unseated Congress Party in 1967. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: No, you have not done...(Interruptions)...

SHRI N. JOTHI: We have unseated, Sir. (Interruptions) United DMK, I understand that. I was the Students' Leader at that time. We unseated them, and, that is why, they don't want to give any credit. But as far as all the social reforms are concerned, the Dravidian Party coined the term 'social justice'; it's all from Tamil Nadu. We are the springboard for social justice for the whole of India. I feel proud about it. Tandai Periyar was the person who brought it on our shoulders and we are carrying it ourselves. We may have differences with another Dravidian parties there, but still, on this issue, we will not differ. We will be together on all social matters. Sir, the question is how to solve this problem? Sir, my friend has brought this Private Members' Bill and the very thin attendance in this House indicates that it has not much support. But I appeal to the Central Government, please don't keep them away, the day is over. If you employ a Scheduled Caste person or Scheduled Tribe person, his family will rise as far as its economic condition is concerned. Once they go up, you will see that rest of them also go up in life. The community will march forward and the social imbalance can be reduced. A person born in this country is not there to toil forever or to commit suicide. He must live in a honourable manner. He must live in a very honourable manner, both in the field of education and employment. Had the caste system not been abolished in Tamil Nadu, I would not have been here in the second row. (Contd. by 2W)


SHRI N. JOTHI (CONTD.): I would be tilling the soil somewhere in my village, fighting with my brothers. I have come here from humble resources, very humble resources. I cannot be compared with Reddy garu here. My resources are very humble. My resources are very simple. I am here because of Thanthai Periyar, because of my leader MGR and because of my leader Jayalalitha, because they have got a social vision. So, we must have a social vision. The Parliament should have a social vision in uplifting our brothers who have been suppressed continuously for the past 3,000 years. I am very sorry, Sir, the teachings of Thanthai Periyar are very crude at times. He would use very unpolished words at times. But, it actually achieved its purpose. He went all the way to Kerala, Vaikkam, where he removed the untouchability. He was a social reformer. But, there is no statue of him.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): His statue is there in Vaikkam.

SHRI N. JOTHI: Here in Parliament. I compare him with Mahatama Gandhi. Really, Sir, he is a great person. I had an occasion of seeing him, talking to him; he visited my house. I am very happy. I remember the moments; I was a very small boy then. So, this is the position in Tamil Nadu. Please take Tamil Nadu as an example in social reforms and social justice. By joining issue with my friend, Mr. Silvius Condpan, in a cordial manner, I would go one step further. We must make it a constitutional burden. If a forward community boy marries a Scheduled Caste or a Scheduled Tribe person, he should be given preference in employment; he should be given cash awards. Then only the untouchability will go and inequality will go. In Tamil Nadu, we have got a G.O. If a forward community person, girl or boy, marries a Scheduled Caste person, if he goes in inter caste marriage -- here inter-caste does not mean sub-caste and inter-caste, it means from top caste to the down caste, if you cut across the line, you must give him employment opportunity and educational opportunity. He must be given preference in medical seats also. We must have a quota. In Tamil Nadu, we have got a quota. I don't think if they have got a quota like this in Pondicherry. In Tamil Nadu, we have got a quota. We have reserved five seats for inter-caste marriage quota. We must do that way. That way we must achieve the position. Sir, I request Mr. Silvius Condapan, because he was a former Minister in Assam, he must go a little further. Because he brought in an initiation, I would request him to push it forward. We are with you. We will be with you. A stage has come wherein we must now eradicate this kind of caste feelings. And, the certificates obtained in one State should be made applicable in other States. Sir, I am asking a very simple question to the Law Minister. Sir, a lawyer enrolled in Assam, a lawyer enrolled in UP, a lawyer enrolled in Tamil Nadu can go and practise anywhere in India. Nobody can question him. He can even go and practise in Jammu and Kashmir. Whereas, a Scheduled Caste person in one State, cannot be a Scheduled Caste person in another State. Why? When you recognise the Banaras Hindu University Degree, why don't you recognise a Scheduled Caste person from Banaras? You recognise the Degree of Utkal University, but you don't recognise a Scheduled Caste or a Scheduled Tribe person of Bhubaneswar in Tamil Nadu. Why, Sir? We must evolve a common system. Of course, there will be some abuses, some misuses. But still, we must see the caste system goes, not only mere in employment opportunities or in recognising certificates. The certificates should be only for some period, not forever. We must have a unified India, we must have unified citizens of India, without caste and, if possible, without religion. Sir, if a man comes, he comes alone. If he goes, he goes alone. Whether he is a child or an old person, the community never goes with him; the religion never goes with him. But, there are separate graveyards for different religions, separate graveyards for different communities. Why? Is it not a shame on this nation? Are we not disowning our responsibility? Is it required after 1947, when we got independence? Even now, the Scheduled Castes people or the Scheduled Tribe people have no independence. They have to struggle for their livelihood. I never belonged to a Scheduled Caste or a Scheduled Tribe. (Contd. by 2x-ysr)


SHRI N. JOTHI (CONTD.): But still, I feel for them. I consider them as my brothers. Because Periyar's teachings are flowing in my blood; my leader's teachings are flowing in my blood. That is why I am saying this. Why should these inequalities be there? Why should castes be further recognised? Why should religion be further recognised? I feel very sorry in saying this. If any comrades here so wish, they can correct me; even among Communist leaders, the caste name runs with their name. I feel sorry that the communist leaders have their caste names going along with their names. Why? What does your religion say? What has Karl Marx said? Religion is an abin. Religion is the most intoxicating thing. That is what they have said. But you have that intoxication with you, in your name, even though you proclaim yourselves to be the Communist leaders!

Sir, we intend to achieve a united India, a casteless India. What my friend is now praying for, through this Private member's Bill, is something very simple; it is a simple Bill. It should have been given even before asking for it. Even in the Bible it is said: "Asketh, you shall be given." If you ask, it will be given. But, I say, it should be given before asking. We should not hesitate in passing this Bill, Sir. I appeal Mr. Bhardwajji, the legal exponent in this matter, to pass it. He knows all the judgements I have referred to now; he also knows about the recent judgements given by the Supreme Court, that unless the President approves, nobody, no community, can be included. It is further said that once a caste is included in one State, it should be recognised in all the States. It should never be a disadvantage to any person. After all, who are they? They are not asking for the community; they are not saying that they want to be born in the community! Nobody is asking that. Nobody asks that he wants to be born in this religion. Nobody is asking that. This is man's creation. God itself is the creation of man. Who has seen God? Who has seen somebody preaching something? Nobody has seen. I have never seen God, at any point of time, even in my difficult days. Thereafter, somebody said that God would help you without disclosing Himself. God will never come without disclosing Himself! When we are questioning the very existence of God saying, bring Him here, I want to see him, or I want to see the Goddess, or, give me the address, I shall go and see Him there, when that is the level of social reform we are making, where does community come? We are talking about terrorism; we are talking about religion-based terrorism and so many such things. I really feel sad about that.

They must read the preachings of Periyar. He questioned, 'where is God?' He spent 70 years of his life questioning the existence of God. Where is God? Where is community? How can you see a man or see his community? I have seen it in Delhi several times that people belonging to the Scheduled Castes are very fair and much more good-looking than the forward community people of my area. I am surprised how they have been named as belonging to the Scheduled Castes. It is very sad on our part, Sir. I feel that it is very shameful for this country to continue with this caste system. We must abolish this. We must have one India, and we must have one kind of citizens. And Sir, to avoid any inequalities, we must approve this Bill. I am for this Bill and I am supporting this Bill. Thank you very much, Sir. (Ends)

懵 (֬ Ϥ) : ֳ֬ , ָ ׾֮֬ ӿ֮ ׻֋ ײֻ ֵ ֵ , ־ԯϣִ ִ֣Ԯ ֳ ֤õ ָ ׾ßָ ֓ ֯ ָ ד֟ ן ד֟ ֮֕ן ָ , ִ֮ ß־ ־ֿ , ֟ ֕ã֮ ד֟ ֮֕ןֵ , ֬ Ϥ ָ ָ™ ֮֕ןֵ , ֬ Ϥ ָ Ϥ ׾ןֵ (2Y/NB ָ ֿ:)


ㇵ (֟) : ֲ ӿ֕ , - , ן , ֲ פֵ ָ ד֟ ֮֕ן ָ , ָ ֳ ״ֻ֮ , ד֟ ׻֋ ׮־ ֕ã֮ "" ֮֕ן , ד֟ ֮֕ן ֮ ֟ , ֬ Ϥ ד֟ ֮֕ן ֯ ָ ָ™ "־" ֮֕ן , ֬ Ϥ ד֟ ֮֕ן ןֵ , ֬ Ϥ ߸ ֮֕ן , ֳ, surname, ָ ߕ ָָ֟ פ ד֟ ֮֕ן ָ ָ ֮ ן ָ , ד֟ ֮֕ן ֮֟ ״ֻ֮ ָ, ٣ ִו ֱ ׯ֔ ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ֕ ֯ ӿ֮ ֋ , ָ ָ ד֟ ן ֮֕ן ׻֋ ִ֮ ָ פ ֋, ׮׿֟ ָ , ׯ֔ ָ߲ , ֳ ֳ ״ֻ օ

ֳ֬ , NDA ָָ ֮־֤ ֲ ײָ ֕֯ ָָ , ׾֮֬ ӿ֮ Ϥ ןֵ ֮֕ןֵ ָ ֳ פ , ןֵ ָ ֳ ד֟ ָ ָ ָ ׻֋ ִ֮ פ ֋, ׮׿֟ ָ ד֟ ן ד֟ ֮֕ן ֜ ׾ օ ֲ ֣, ֮ ֟ ִ֯ ֮־֤



THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Thank you Miss Anusuiya Uikey. Now, Shri Santosh Bagrodia. (Interruptions)

֮֮ߵ ֤õ : ֻ ?

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (RAJASTHAN): ֕ 滛 Ù 滛 և ֻ ֻ ֋ Sir, I will start with this sentence since he has made a comment. This is the only country in the world -- I would like to underline, this is the only country in the world -- where people fight with each other to get themselves declared as backward. This is the only country. Somebody said that he wants to become a Brahmin. So, naturally I also want to be declared as a Scheduled Caste. (Interruptions)

֮ ֻ ӛ : ֳ֬ , ֟ Ӥ ָ Ӿ׮ ־ã , ׾ִ affidavit ֮ ִ ֤ , ָ , , և , affidavit ֱ , ָ -־ã ֮ affidavit ֯ ֮ caste ֤ ׻֋ ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ֮ -־ã ֮ -־ã ֌ ֮

THE MINISTER OF LAW AND JUSTICE (SHRI H.R. BHARDWAJ): Sir, I don't think this is the correct position of law. These are all social arrangements. The Constitution doesn't recognise all this. The Constitution recognises equality in the society and that is the goal, whatever we assume Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, etc. They were Manu Samriti's arrangements which have been totally abolished from India. Sir, these Samritis are not divine; they are added by the society. The real thing is the Shruties in which the God says,

Կ־õ״֤ ־ ؟ִ ֟ ֟

Everybody is pervaded by God, one God. There are not 20 or 30 Gods. (Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Everybody is equal in the eyes of God and also in the eyes of the Constitution.

SHRI H.R. BHARDWAJ: Sir, the God treats everybody. There is only one Sun for the whole world; there is one Moon for the whole world; there is one air for the whole world. This is only man who has created discrimination...(Interruptions)...

֮ ֻ ӛ : ֛ ֟ ׾֮֬ ֲ ִ֮ ָ , ׾֮֬ ׾ֿ ָ ׾֮֕ ִ֮ ָ ֟ ֻ Ùߙ֮ ־ã ׾ֿ ָ פ ֋ ֮ Ùߙ֮ , Ùߙ֮ ׾֮֕ , ִ֮ ָ ֣ ׾ֿ ָ ֟ և ן ֤ , ֛ ֈ, ָ ֤֮ , ֯ ֮ ן ֤ -־ã ִו ָ , ֛ ֲָ ִו ָ ߕ ֟ ׻֋ ֮ ן ֤ ִו ָ , ׾ִִ֟ , ֲ ֛ ־ֻ ׻֋ ָ , ׻֋ ײֻ (Followed by RSS/2z)



SHRI H.R. BHARDWAJ: Sir, I don't like this kind of comments from the Members of Parliament. Sir, the Indian Constitution recognises equality. But there is a protective

discrimination allowed in our Constitution in favour of those who have been ill-treated for centuries, just like untouchables. So, our Founding Fathers like Mahatma Gandhi and B.R. Ambedkar thought how to bring them in the mainstream. So, they allowed protective discrimination in those cases, not for others. Therefore, this is the goal that until they come up like others, they should be given reservation in Parliament and State Assemblies. They have a different kind of a case. So, that is recognised, and that was also for a few years, 10 years, 20 years or 30 years, and since we are not able to bring equality among those people, we are continuing with it. Don't blame the Constitution. This is man- made... (Interruptions)....

֮ ֻ ӛ : , Ùߙ֮ blame ֟ , ָ ֟ ׸ָ ִ ׻ֵ ׸ָ ָ ֤ ׸ָ , ׾֮֬ ӿ֮ 滛 Ù, ֛ ׮֙ߕ , ׻֋ ׸־֮ ïֻ ׾֮֕ օ ׻֋ ׾֮֬ ֲ . ֕ꮦ ֤ ꮮև ֋, ֲ ׸ָ ׾֮֬ ֻ , ֯ ֟և ָ ׻֋ ß , ־֮֬ ֵ , ־ã և ׻֋ ־ֻ ־ֻ ׾֮֬ ָ ׻֋ , ־֕ ֋ꅠ ָ ׻֋ ֲ ־ã , implement ו֋

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I would like to make only one observation. Initially, while starting his speech, Mr. Santosh Bagrodia started with this controversy. He said that in the whole universe, the world over, according to him, people are not fighting for reservation. It is only in India that the people are fighting for reservation. This is not the case with any other country. That is what he said. I take strong exception to it because unless and until people fight for their right in India, they will not get it. Therefore, they have been fighting for their right and they are getting their right because of the system prevailing in the country because only one section has been dominating in India, they have been in power, suppressing the other communities. Now, when the other communities are coming up, they are not able to tolerate it. That is what is happening now..(Interruptions)...

SHRI N. JOTHI: Please give me one minute. Sir, he has said that only in India, people are fighting for reservation. It is because of the fact that only in India, there is a caste system. Nowhere in the world, there is a caste system. That is the point....(Interruptions)...

SHRI MATILAL SARKAR: You can change your religion. But, you cannot change your caste...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Not only that, even if you change your religion, the caste must continue.

SHRI H.R. BHARDWAJ: There is no caste system in Islam, in Christianity. These are only our values...(Interruptions)...Sir, in Islam, they are all equal. Is there any caste in Christianity? No. In Christianity, everybody is equal.

PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Theoretically no.

֮ ֻ ӛ : ׾׬ ӡ ֟ , ֲ ֮ ӡ ûִ ן ־ã ִֻ֮ ׯ֔ , ׸־֮ ֕ ׾֮֬ ׾ָ֯ߟ ֟

SHRI H.R. BHARDWAJ: In Islam, all are equal. We borrowed this equality from Islam.

֮ ֻ ӛ : ֕ʹ ֟ ûִ ־ã conversion ... (־֮֬) ...

ָ֕ ָ֕ : ûִ ֲ ֲָָ ... (־֮֬) ...

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ָ, ִֻ֮ ֵ ֲ֢ ֟ ӛ ߿֮ 7.5 ָ, ִֻ֮ ֵ֤ ֟ ԟ ֮֯ ֟-֟ ־ã

ָ ֟ ָ ׻֟ ִֻ֮ ֋, ׸־֮ ״ֻ, ׻֟ ָ և ֋, ׸־֮ ״ֻօ ֮ ? ֛ ߲֟ ֟ ֟ ... (־֮֬) ...

ی ی : ѡ ۔ی۔ی۔ ی ј ی ۔ ی ی ۔ی۔ی۔ ی ی ی 5۔7 یϡ ی ۔ی۔ی۔ ј ۔ ی  ی یʪ ی ۔

ی ی ǐ ی ی ǡ ǐ یی ی ی ۔ ی ی Țی ی ۔ ۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔

(3 ָ ֿ:)


THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please sit down. ...(Interruptions)... Please sit down. ...(Interruptions)... ߕ ך, ך ...(Interruptions)...

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ׸־֮ ״ֻ ...(־֮֬)...

ی ی : ی ۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔

ֳ֬ : ߕ ך

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : և ֮ ֤ ٣ ֻ֟ ֤ ֟ ...(־֮֬)... ׻֟ ָ ִֻ֮ ֟ ... (־֮֬)...

ی ی : یی ی ی ʪ ی ۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔ ǐ ۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔

ֳ֬ : ߕ ך

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ֲ ׸־֮ ״ֻ֟ , ֱ ? ָ ׻֟ ִֻ֮ ֟ , և ֟ ...(־֮֬)...

ی ی : ʘ ی ی ǟ ǐ یی ۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What the Minister said is......(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, it is unfortunate that.....(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Narayanasamyji, please sit down. ...(Interruptions)... Azmiji, please sit down. That is okay. ...(Interruptions)...

Why do you discuss it? ...(Interruptions)...

־ָ : ûִ ן ־ã , ûִ ִ֕ ...(־֮֬)... 000 ֻ֟ ֻ -ߓ ִ ָ ...(־֮֬)... ֯ ִ֮

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please stop this discussion now. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Anwar, that is enough. ...(Interruptions)... That is enough. Please sit down. ...(Interruptions)... That is enough. ...(Interruptions)... That is enough. That is enough. ...(Interruptions)...

־ָ : ָ ָ ָ֕ ֟

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please sit down. ...(Interruptions)... Please sit down. That is enough. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Azmi, please sit down. That is enough. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Azmi, please take your seat. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Azmi, sit down. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Azmi, sit down. ...(Interruptions)... Please take your seats. ...(Interruptions)... Okay. That is enough. Mr. Azmi, please sit down. ...(Interruptions)... What is this? ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Azmi, please take your seat. That is enough. ...(Interruptions)... That is enough. ...(Interruptions)... Okay. ...(Interruptions)... This is not good. What is this? ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ: Sir, I am on a point of order. ...(Interruptions)... ֳ֬ , և ִֵ ֟ ֵ , ֈ ׸ ...(־֮֬)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: The House stands adjourned till 11 A.M. on Monday, the 31st July, 2006.


The House then adjourned at

fifty-eight minutes past four of the clock till

eleven of the clock on Monday, the 31st July, 2006.