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KSK/GS/8.00/4S

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Where is the book? ..(Interruptions).. Where is the book? Member should bring the book and authenticate the book. ֯ ֲ ևꅠ Now, it is very clear....(Interruptions). Please, listen to me. Now, it is very clear when he said that he is reading from the book. He should have given prior notice to the author of the book. Why has he not given prior notice to the author of the book?.....(Interruptions).

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: That is for the Government to clarify.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, either you adjourn the House...(Interruptions).

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please, sit down....(Interruptions). Mr. Ahluwalia, please sit down....(Interruptions). Nothing will go on record.....(Interruptions).

If you want to speak, please, go to your seat first...(Interruptions). I will see the records...(Interruptions).

֕߾ ㌻ : ׾ , ױ ָ ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ָָ ָ ï™ ָָ ָ ï™ ..(־֮֬)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Mr. Ahluwalia, you don't want me to deal with that....(Interruptions). You have raised a point of order and you will not allow me to deal with that....(Interruptions). That is not correct. Please go to your seat...(Interruptions). I will not allow this.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Please, see the records.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You should ask your Members to behave. You have raised a point of order and I want to deal with that, but you are not allowing me to deal with it.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You said, "I will see the records"....(Interruptions). I heard myself...(Interruptions).

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please go to your seat...(Interruptions).

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: He is insulting the Chair.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That means you disobey the Chair. You raised a point of order and you don't want me to deal with that.

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Sir, the problem is that when the House proceedings are being televised, then that old rule about expunging remarks has no meaning because the whole country has listened already. Whole country has seen already what Mr. Rajeev Shukla said. Now, you might look into the records, expunge it; it is all kagazi karyavahi.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What else can I do?...(Interruptions). Then, ask for the rules...(Interruptions). Mr. Yashwant Sinha, you are a senior Member. You, please tell me what else I can do. After seeing the records, if there is any such personal remark made, other than expunging, as per rules, what else can I do?

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: You can ask him to withdraw. You can ask him to apologise.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You can reprimand him.

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: It is only today that a senior Member like Shri Janeshwar Mishra expressed regret...(Interruptions).

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: And, only yesterday, Shri Pranab Mukherjee.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): You don't want me to deal with the issue...(Interruptions). What will I do?

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Your powers are...(Interruptions). You can definitely tell the Members to exactly behave in the manner....(Interruptions). (followed by 4t)

GSP-SC/4T/8.05

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: This is not fair, Sir. (Interruptions)

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Sir, you have been a Member of this House for a long time. What happens always is that it is the Opposition that levels charges against the Government. Now, we find that ever since the UPA Government has come to power, they are all the time attacking the Opposition as if they are in the Opposition and we are in the Treasury Benches. (Interruptions) What is this, Sir? Mr. Narayanasamy gets up whenever he wants and makes all kinds of wild allegations. And, Mr. Rajeev Shukla, Sir, did he leave the NDA on the Kandhar issue? Why did he not leave...(Interruptions).

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: Yes, I did leave...(Interruptions)...

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Did he leave the NDA at that point of time?

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: Yes, Sir, at that moment...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN : Please take your seats. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: If he was so...(Interruptions)...why did not he leave the NDA at that point of time. ִֵ ֻ ֋?..(־֮֬).. ִֵ ֻ ֋ ..(־֮֬).. ֲ ֕ ֳ ־ֻ ֵ, ֲ ָ ֻև ֮ ֻ ֋..(־֮֬)..

֕߾ ㌻ : ִֵ ֋ ..(־֮֬).. ִֵ ֋ , because you had released the...((Interruptions)....

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Now, please. (Interruptions) I am giving the ruling.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, please see page no. 124, the ruling of...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: No, no. You cannot raise another point of order.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: It is mentioned that...(Interruptions)...a prior notice to be given to the...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: See, I am already on a point of order. You cannot raise another point of order. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, Mr. Ahluwalia is dictating...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. Take your seats. (Interruptions) Listen. Now, Mr. Shukla, have you taken the permission of the Chair to make a personal allegation?

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Not the permission of the Chair. (Interruptions) Prior notice to the Member... Whether he has given the prior notice...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: The Chairman will look into it. (Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: No, no, Sir. It is there. It is in the proceedings. Page 124 ...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: The Chairman knows that. The Chairman only will allow...(Interruptions)...

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You are the Chairman now. (Interruptions) No, no. You are the Chairman. (Interruptions).

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): I have asked, has he taken the permission...(Interruptions)...

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: No, Sir. You are the Chairman. (Interruptions) It is not fair. What is the purpose of this book?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please, please. (Interruptions) Take your seats first. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Mr. Ahluwalia, you cannot always...(Interruptions)...

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: What is the purpose of this book?

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: What is your ruling, Sir.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That is what he is not allowing me to give. (Interruptions) I am not being allowed to do that.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You are saying that the Chairman will look into it. (Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I am not being allowed to give the ruling. What can I do? Let me find out...(Interruptions)... Please, don't ...(Interruptions).... Let me find out. Have you taken prior permission of the Chairman?

֕߾ ㌻ : ײֻ ߱և ֮֮ , ߛ ֯ו֮̿ ..(־֮֬).. ֮֮ ֟ ׮֋ ..(־֮֬).. ֮֮ ִֵ ׾֢ ӡ , ֟֋ פ ֵ ? ..(־֮֬)... , ֯ ֟

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shukla...(Interruptions)... Now, please tell me. (Interruptions) What is the allegation that has been made...(Interruptions)... Tell me that.

֕߾ ㌻ : , ָ ? ..(־֮֬).. ִֵ ׾֢ ӡ ..(־֮֬).. ֟֋ פ ֵ?..(־֮֬).. þ ֛ ..(־֮֬).. Ӆ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Sir, this is contrary to what he has said. This is completely contrary to what he has said. (Interruptions) He made an allegation.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): What did he say? At least, tell me that. (Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, the point is whether for making an allegation...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What is that allegation? (Interruptions) I am asking.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: No, no. Why should he repeat that? (Interruptions) You adjourn the House and call for the records.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: How can I adjourn the House? (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, Mr. Ahluwalia is ruling the...(Interruptions)... Sir, he wanted to know from the Leader of the Opposition...(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shukla, firstly, tell me...(Interruptions)

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: Sir, I have not made any allegation. I just wanted to know and this is a question, which has been...(Interruptions)...They are supposed to know and respond to that question. (Interruptions) We want to know from the former Finance Minister whether any money was paid or not. (Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, this is not what he had....(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What did he say? Go to your seat and tell me.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You call for the records. (Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I said, what I would do ...(Interruptions)...Tell me the allegation that has been made. (Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: No, no. When will you do that?

(Followed by 4U/sk)

SK/4u/8.10

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): The Chair will see the record and expunge if there is any personal allegations against anyone. ...(Interruptions).. That will be expunged. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Without seeing the records how can you expunge? ...(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I have to see the records if there is any allegation ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You adjourn the House ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: You cannot dictate the Chair. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: How can you say that you will look into the records and then expunge? ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, he is talking as if he ...(Interruptions).. I have got a point of order, Sir. ...(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I have already given my ruling. The records will be seen and if any personal allegation is made, it will be expunged. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You do not know what he has said. ...(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That is why I said that I would see the records and do the needful. ...(Interruptions)..You can't ask me to do it now. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI SHATRUGHAN SINHA: The best way would be, I would suggest you to call for the records. Let us see the records ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: You cannot order the Chair. ...(Interruptions)..


(MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, there was ...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, please. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, the hon. Member, Mr. Rajeev Shukla, was making certain allegation against another Member of the House, not only a Member, but also the Leader of the Opposition of this House. As far as I go, on page 124 of Rulings and Observations from the Chair. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI B.K. HARIPRASAD: Sir, the Vice-Chairman has already given the ruling.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: One minute. I have just come. Please give me some time.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, on page 124, ruling number 158, 'Debates: Allegations: Prior notice to be given to a Member against whom an allegation is made'. I wanted to know from the Chair whether he had given a prior notice to the Member or not. It was not replied to. Secondly, on page 123, Rulings and Observations from the Chair, 156 and 157, 'Allegations: Something said in the House, if it is of a nature of an allegation, has to be substantiated'. And then, 'Allegations: Allegation needs to be substantiated'. He is unable to substantiate it. Now, he is changing his stand one after another. He made an allegation against Jaswant Singhji, who was not present here. He has not given any notice to him and made certain allegations which are not permissible as per the rule book and that is why I demanded that let the records be called for because the Chair was asking me what he said; he was not aware of that. He asked me to explain. Why should I explain? The Chair should be aware of what he said. And, if it is not aware, records should be called. And till that time the House should be adjourned. Let the records come and the matter be decided. Then we are ready to discuss anything.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I am on a point of order on this issue. ...(Interruptions).. Please give me half a minute, Sir. (followed by 4w-ysr)

-SK/YSR-ASC/8.15/4W

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, he also made the allegation. (Interruptions) He also made the allegation. (Interruptions)

ֳ֯ן : ׻ֵ , ִ֮֬ ׮ֻ ..(־֮֬).. ִ֮֬ ׮ֻ , ֯ ״֮֙ ִֵ ו֋ ..(־֮֬).. ״֮֙

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: The hon. Member raised the same point of order before the hon. Vice-Chairman. Hon. Vice-Chairman gave a ruling that he would go through the record and if some words were unparliamentary, he would expunge them from the record.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: What is unparliamentary? (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Kindly, hear me. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia. (Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: It is not unparliamentary. (Interruptions)

ֳ֯ן : ׻ֵ , ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: It is against the parliamentary ethics. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, please. (Interruptions) ֋, ֯..(־֮֬)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, he is twisting the facts. (Interruptions) He is trying to twist the facts. (Interruptions)

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ׻֋ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, a ruling was given by the hon. Vice-Chairman. All the hon. Members of the House are bound by it. Therefore, Sir, I would like to submit that since the ruling has been given on the subject, it cannot be adjudicated again in this House. That is my submission.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You are right. I will tell you. Mr. Ahluwalia has quoted from pages 123 and 124 of the Ruling and Observations from the Chair. It is: "Debates: Allegations: Prior notice to be given to Member against whom an allegation is made." He has brought it to the notice of the Chair. Now, the issue is whether any allegation has been made. That has to be verified.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: That has to be verified.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Vice-Chairman has given a ruling that he will look into the record and then it will be done. So, why should the House be adjourned when we are already short of time?

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: At the fag end, again you will say that in all cases, all speakers will make allegations.. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We will not allow that. (Interruptions) Please. (Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: What is this?

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Sir, the point I made was that there was live telecast of our proceedings. So, the whole world watches and the whole world listens to what is uttered in this House. A serious allegation has been made against the Leader of the Opposition by the hon. Member. He, in fact, challenged me. He said, "Mr. Yashwant Sinha is present in the House. He was the Finance Minister. He should confirm how much money was transacted." This is what he asked. Now, a serious allegation has been made. This is something which has been seen by everyone, heard by everyone. So, the point I am making is that in such a situation -- when these rules were made, there was no live telecast, so, you could expunge it -- the justice from the Chair should be instant. It has happened in the past that a Member has made a remark. People have not liked it. Yesterday, it happened that a senior Minister made a remark. We did not like it. He came back and apologised to the House. The point we are making is that here is a clear violation of the rules by an hon. Member. He should have the decency and the courage to stand up here. I am borrowing the Prime Minister's words. He should have the decency and the courage to stand up here and say, "I am sorry. I made an allegation, which I am not in a position to substantiate." That will be the solution of this issue. Nothing short of that is going to satisfy us.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Yes. Let him say that.

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: Sir, I simply wanted to know from Mr. Yashwant sinha..(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Again, he is explaining. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Don't repeat any allegation. (Interruptions) Don't repeat the allegation. (Interruptions) Don't repeat the allegation. (Interruptions) Let us solve this problem. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: Sir, I only posed the question to the former Finance Minister whether these allegations were correct. (Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, again he is repeating it. (Interruptions)

ֳ֯ן : ׸֛ ־֮ ֌ ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ׸֛ ־֮ ֌ ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ׸֛ ־֮ և ֟ , ֈ ..(־֮֬).. ֌ , ..(־֮֬)..֌ , ׻֋ ..(־֮֬)..

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ָ, ֈ ֻև ..(־֮֬)..

مولاناعبیداللہخاناعظمی : سر، ہا‎ؤس کو چلائیے۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔

ֳ֯ן : ֈ ֻ֮ ׻֋ ..(־֮֬)..

00 ׻ֵ : ? ..(־֮֬)..

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ֮ ֟֋ ֮ߠ ֮ (־֮֬)..

مولاناعبیداللہخاناعظمی : سنہا جی بتائیں کہ کتنی منی ۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔

ֳ֯ן : - ֋ ֯ ױ ִ .. (־֮֬)..ױ ֯ ֟ (־֮֬). (4X/NB ָ ָ)

NB-VKK/4x/8.20

֕߾ ㌻ : ߮ ֟, ߮ ־ֻ ֋ ... (־֮֬)

.. ׻ֵ : ױ ֟ ... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן : .... (־֮֬)

.. ׻ֵ : ־ֻ י פ , ־ֻ ... (־֮֬) The House should know that whether he has given the notice or not. (Interruptions)

ֳ֯ן : ׻ֵ , ֯ .... (־֮֬) ֯ ך .... (־֮֬)

.. ׻ֵ : י פ פ .... (־֮֬)

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, ָ , .... (־֮֬)

.. ׻ֵ : ױ ֟, .... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן : ָ ָֻ ָ ָ .... (־֮֬)

֕߾ ㌻ : ־ֻ ָ ־ֻ ֯ ֟ ߕ ֻ֟ , ֯ expunge .... (־֮֬) ׾ , ־ֻ - , ֲ --֤ ߱ ֵ ֵ .... (־֮֬) Ӯ פ .... (־֮֬)

׻ֵ : ֮ٛ ָ , he is aware of every fact. What is this?

ֳ֯ן : ־ ֯ allegation , ֯ withdraw

SHRI SHARAD ANANTRAO JOSHI: Sir, we should not waste time in this...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. I am not wasting time. (Interruptions) If you are going to waste time, what can I do? (Interruptions)

THE HOME MINISTER (SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL): Sir, what Ahluwaliaji has said and what he has quoted is a legal position. Honourable Members from this side and from that side also have made their points. Mr. Ahluwalia's stand is, if you want to allege anything against any Member, the first thing which should be done is to give him the notice and after that take permission from the House and say anything which goes against that Member. He is right and the hon. Member from here also has said that, "Look, I raise this issue. If it is not as per the rules, you can expunge it." (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He has not said that. ֯

.. ׻ֵ : Expunge ֮ , ֟ I can abuse the Minister, then I can withdraw. (Interruptions) What is this? (Interruptions)

ֳ֯ן : ׻֋, ֯ solution ֟և

.. ׻ֵ : ֯ withdraw և

ֳ֯ן :

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, ֱ ֮֮ .... (־֮֬)

.. ׻ֵ : ױ ֮֮ .... (־֮֬) ֮֮ ? ֯ ֱ ֋ ֤ .... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן : ֕߾ , ֯ ׻֋ .... (־֮֬)

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, Ͽ , ־ֻ Ͽ ־ֻ ָ ֵ?

.. ׻ֵ : ֮֯ ־ֻ .... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן : ֟ և, withdraw ׸ .... (־֮֬) ֋, ֯ withdraw ו֋ .... (־֮֬)

֕߾ ㌻ : ־ֻ , ָ ֯ ֟ , ֯ expunge ו֋ .... (־֮֬)


.. ׻ֵ : ֮֯ ־ֻ , ָ ֵ .... (־֮֬)

֕߾ ㌻ : , ָ ֵօ ־ֻ ӡ , .... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן : .... (־֮֬) ֯ withdraw ו֋ .... (־֮֬) ׸ ֮ ִֵ ֟ .... (־֮֬)

.. ׻ֵ : ֲ ֈ adjourn ׸ .... (־֮֬) ֲ ֻ , ֯ ׸ և ֈ adjourn ׸

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The House is adjourned to meet tomorrow at 11.00 a.m.

---

The House then adjourned twenty-five minutes past eight

of the clock till eleven of the clock

on Friday, the 28th July, 2006.

---

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