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VK-MCM/4f/7.00

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (CONTD): Sir, on the same day, in the Kashmir Valley, targeting the tourists, terrorist killed eight people. We all now that. Even during the days of national calamities, terrorists have attacked many places in Kashmir. Many innocent Muslims have been killed by the terrorists. Many Hindu tourists from my State, West Bengal, lost their lives. Our local MLA, Shri Tariqnami, was attacked and his uncle was killed.

Our country has witnessed many terrorist attacks. There were attacks on Parliament, Red Fort, twice on the Raghunath Temple, and then on the Akshardham Temple. Can we say that during the NDA rule all the terrorist attacks took place due to appeasement of minorities? How can we describe the incidents and crimes like demolition of the Babri Masjid? How can we describe the incidents in Gujarat? Who are responsible for that? Why can't those incidents be described as communal and terrorist acts? In Gujarat, since 2002, over 250 persons have been officially recognised as missing. Some say the number is 500.

When Shri Kalyan Singh was the Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh, he came to Kolkata and made a public announcement just after the demolition of the Babri Masjid. He said proudly, " ָ ִ ә פ ֟ ִ օ He advocated the demolition. I remember that. I was a Mayor of Kolkata at that time. The then Chief Minister of West Bengal referred this case to the Commission also.

Sir, we agree that the internal security should be strengthened. There are lapses. There are shortcomings. Then Disaster Management needs to be augmented. There is the problem of cross-border terrorism. Security and intelligence need to be strengthened. But not in the BJP's way, not in the Shiv Sena's way who are communalising the whole situation. That is what I want to say here. (Interruptions)

After hearing some of the speeches, one may draw lesson on ignorance that Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan and Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad had no role in the freedom movement. As Nathuram Godse drew the lesson that Mahatma Gandhi required to be murdered. Due to ignorance, some of us may draw this conclusion.

It is a fact that in order to recover the lost ground, after the defeat, the BJP wants to restore its lost political base.

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ָ, ֓......(־֮֬) ֟ ....(־֮֬)

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: Some say that had there been POTA, no such attacks would have occurred. (Interruptions).

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ֳ֬ , ֓ 㴲և ָ߮ ִ Ù ָ ꬵ ָ......(־֮֬) ֯ ־ã ־ֻ .....(־֮֬) ꬵ - ֻ ֻօ.....(־֮֬)

ֳ֬ (0 00׸֮) : ך-ך.....(־֮֬)

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ֯ ֟և ָ

ֳ֬ (0 00׸֮) : פ, ך.....(־֮֬)

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ֯ ֱ ֮ ֮֮ .....(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: When your turn comes, you can speak.

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: None of those in Gujarat who has killed innocent men and women, has been arrested under POTA.

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ֯ ֮ ֮֮ .....(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You have made your point. Now you take your seat.

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ֯ ֟և 㴲և ָ ꬵ ָ ֯ ֣Ԯ 㴲և ָ .....(־֮֬)

ֳ֬ : ֲ ֯ ֋ ֲ Please take your seat. Mr. Chatterjee, please be brief.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, he is the only speaker from our party.

(Interruptions).

(Followed by 4G)

GS-RG/7.05/4G

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: India was subjected to such attacks when POTA was there...(Interruptions)

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ָ, ֯ ־ã ..(־֮֬).. ָ, ֯ ־ã ..(־֮֬).. ..(־֮֬).. כÙ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: Minority fundamentalism and majority communalism...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chatterjee, will you yield for a minute?(Interruptions) Please, for my sake...(Interruptions) ֯ և ..(־֮֬).. ֯ և ..(־֮֬).. Are you on a point of order? (Interruptions) Under what Rule?

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ֮֮ߵ ֳ֬ , ..(־֮֬).. ־ã Ͽ ..(־֮֬).. ..(־֮֬).. ևә ֱ ֛ ׾ֵ ֮֯ ֤ ֓ ׻֋ פ , ִ ׾ֵ 㴲և ָ߮ ֻ ִ ׾ñ ֙ֆ פ ֵ ִ ꬵ פ ֵ , ׾ֵ פ ֋ , ו֮ ֓ , ..(־֮֬)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): The subject of discussion is "Incidents of terrorist violence particularly in the context of recent bomb blasts in Mumbai." So, whatever he thinks to be terrorism in any part of the country, he can speak on it. Your job is to listen to him and then respond when your turn comes...(Interruptions)

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ֳ֬ , ִ ꬵ ֵ, ꬵ ִ ӛ ֵ? ..(־֮֬)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That is not my job to decide what he should speak...(Interruptions)

SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: It is highly objectionable...(Interruptions) When Dr. Joshi was speaking, we were sitting here patiently...(Interruptions)

׾ֵ֮ יָ : ָ, ֈ ֻ֟ ׮ִֵ ԟօ ..(־֮֬).. ׾ֵ ָ ֲ ֮ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Sir, with great respect, I wish to say something...(Interruptions) The point which I wish to make is this...(Interruptions) If you listen to me just for a minute,...(Interruptions) No, I am not disturbing...(Interruptions) The point I am making is this. As you said, Sir, the subject is "incidents of terrorist violence in the country particularly in the context of recent bomb blasts in Mumbai." This is the subject. Now this country -- I am not talking of this party or that party -- has a stated position in international fora and the stated position of various international fora like the United Nations Security Council, the U.N. General Assembly, etc., has been not to go into the root-causes of terrorism. If we go into the debate of root-causes, then, there will be no end to it. There are the U.N. Resolutions. There are any numbers of statements which have been passed by various bodies internationally which say that terrorism in any form, irrespective of what triggers it, cannot be tolerated. Now, the point is, if we go into the root-causes, then, we are going against all these international resolutions. Therefore, I plead to you; let us not go into it. We will blame you for the root-cause and you will blame us for the root-cause. Yes; we have to condemn terrorism. Let us confine to that.

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: Sir, I have dealt with the POTA issue. India was subject to such attacks even when POTA was there. That is our party's view. Now, what is the lesson? Minority fundamentalism and majority communalism cannot survive with constantly brooding and strengthening each other. I would like to read a portion of the article which appeared in The Hindustan Times. The Information Secretary of the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba had said, on the eve of the 1999 elections -- I am only reading a portion of it -- and it states, "We pray to God that they -- the BJP -- should come to power again. Then, we will emerge even stronger." (Continued by 4H)

TDB-SC/4H/7.10

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (CONTD.): It appeared in the Hindustan Times. They feel that the BJP suits them. "...Within a year they have made us into a nuclear and missile power. The Lashkar-e-Tayyeba is getting good response because of the BJP's statements. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Is the BJP the root cause of terrorism?

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: Sir, we should take the lesson how the minority fundamentalism and the majority communalism...(Interruptions)...

׾ֵ֕ ָ : ߕ ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ֲ ? ..(־֮֬).. ֟ ? ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: Sir, there is also a demand from interested quarters to change the independent Foreign Policy of our country. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, I have another point to make. The VHP Chief, Shri Ashok Singhal, on Tuesday, I remember, Sir, when Rabindra Nath Tagore...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please conclude.

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: He actually came on the street, and he made a statement on Raksha Bandhan, ...(Interruptions)...

׾ֵ֕ ָ : ֵ, 㴲և ָ ..(־֮֬)..ױ ֲ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: And the VHP Chief, Shri Ashok Singhal made a statement to end minority status for Muslims, and India should do an Israel-like attack without bending to Muslim and international pressures....(Interruptions)... That is why the whole implication is...(Interruptions)...

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Sir, Ashok Singhal is not a member of this House.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please conclude. Your allotted time is over...(Interruptions).... Please conclude. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: Sir, apart from undermining India's independent and sovereign status, such shifts will expose India to greater vulnerability to terrorist attacks. So, with these few words, I conclude my speech. Thank you, Sir. ...(Interruptions)... (Ends)

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA (NOMINATED): Sir, I rise to speak on a subject that is foremost on the minds of most Indians today. The ghastly tragedy that was brought upon by the serial bomb blasts in Mumbai on the 11th of July has brought widespread condemnation and revulsion from around the world and within the country. It has also starkly brought before us, Sir, the issue of security. On a normal working day, in a commuter train, a series of bomb blasts go off in India's commercial capital, killing over 185 people and injuring over 800 people. Sir, in a matter of moments, thousands of people were injured and thousands of people have been scarred forever. The same day, Sir, a little while later, we hear of a bomb blast in Jammu and Kashmir. A week later, Sir, in distant Chhattisgarh, a tribal camp is attacked, again, killing over 30 people, sparing neither women nor children. So, whether it is in remote Chhattisgarh and its poor tribals or whether it is middle class commuters in Mumbai in India's commercial capital, the question that the people are asking us is, what can the Government do to protect us from such terror attacks that spare neither men, women nor children?

Sir, I would like to quote -- last week, speaking to the Chief Secretaries of the States -- what the hon. Prime Minister correctly affirmed, "It was a primary responsibility of the State to maintain public order and ensure the safety of its citizens". While the Prime Minister is very right in his assertion, we, in this House, cannot overlook the fact that terrorism hurts the sovereignty of India, and preservation of India's sovereignty is not only the responsibility of the Government of the day but also of its citizens.

Sir, when an incident of this kind happens, it is very easy to say that there has been a failure. Of course, there has been a failure, if not, how could such an incident have occurred? But, I would urge this august House not only to resort to mere condemnation but to look at ways and means in which we can help the Government to fulfil this basic responsibility of its so that in future incidents such as these do not occur not in Mumbai, Sir, not in any other part of the country.

I am aware, Sir, that for the past one year, there have been many attempts by the terrorists which have been aborted. In fact, in the last seven months alone, over 65 modules or shells have been neutralised by the security agencies. In April this year, the security agencies learnt of a consignment comprising of explosives and guns that had found its way into India from the western coast. Later on, on the 9th of May, they managed to intercept part of that consignment comprising of 24 kilograms of RDX, over 11 AK-47s and some grenades. This consignment was caught in Aurangabad, Sir. However, they were unable to lay their hands on the entire consignment nor could they find Mr. Zaibuddin Ansari, the head of the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba Cell who was successful in carrying out the unfortunate blasts in Mumbai.

(Contd. by kls/4j)

KLS/MP/4J-7.14

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA (CONTD): I would also like to commend the outstanding work of the security forces in gunning down the terrorists who tried to blow up the makeshift shrine in Babari Masjid earlier this year or later the same people who thwarted the attack on the RSS headquarters in Nagpur. By the same token one has to take note of the fact of the security services that aborted the attack on the Indian Military Academy cadets also earlier this year. However, in spite of their best efforts, they could not avert the series of bomb blasts that happened during Diwali in Delhi or the attack on Sankatmochan which was also carried out. It is no secret, Sir, that for the past quarter century or so, India has been the target of terrorist activities planned by groups from a neighbouring country. The role of that country in fomenting terrorism is also well known and the footprints of many terror organisations from across the world actually result in camps in this country. The leader of this country tell us that he is willing to cooperate provided we give him the proof of involvement of his countrymen. According to me, he is being too clever by heart. What stops him from taking action against Lashkar-e-Taiaba and organisations which he himself outlawed in 2003, and whose leaders move around freely. After the 1993 blast, we asked him to hand over Dawood Ibrahim and Tiger Memon against whom there was enough evidence of their involvement in the 1993 blasts. Yet in spite of our repeated requests, this was rejected by the person from the neighbouring country. Now he tells that he wants proof, Sir. There were enough conspirators who were involved in the 1993 bomb blasts, including the brother of Tiger Memon who had confessed about the role of the security agencies of that country's hand in planning those blasts. What are we to say when he again starts asking us for a proof? This unravelled conspiracy of attacks in Delhi and Varanasi point to something which is even more alarming, that is, a trend of home-grown Jehadis. We have seen locations of these cells in Andhra Pradesh, in Karnataka, in Maharashtra and many other parts of the country. It is also well known that for the last 20 years or so agents of many foreign powers have tried to subvert the Muslim community in India. Acts of commission and omission within the country have only further fuelled this course. The foremost amongst this has been the role of the fundamentalist preachers who use this platform (Time-bell) It is my maiden speech, Sir. ...(Interruptions)... But I will be brief.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIAN): It is your maiden speech I did not know that. Sorry. Please proceed. ...((Interruptions)... Sorry, I did not know that. ...((Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA: Sir, these fundamentalists preachers have used the platform of madarsas and of mosques to actually stoke the fire of hatred and resentment. This said, Sir, I cannot but refer to the role...(Interruptions)...

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ָ, ׸ױ֮ ֤ ...(־֮֬)..., ֋, ֤ ֤֟ , ֮ ִ֯, ֤֟ ֮֟ ....(־֮֬).... ֲ ֤ ָ ֤֕ ־֮ ...(־֮֬)... ֤ ָ ֤֕ ־֮ ֤ ָ ֟ , ϴ֟ ....(־֮֬)...

مولاناعبیداللہخاناعظمی : سر،میںاسکاکلیریفکیشنکرناچاہوںگاکہکسمدرسےکو ۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔ نہیں،دیکھئے،مدرسوںکوآتنکوادسےجوڑنا، یہاپنےآپمیں،میںخوداسکوآتنکوادمانتاہوں۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔ مجھےاسکاثبوتچاہئے۔ ہومدرسےہمارےدیشکی آزادی کی چھاونی تھے۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔ مدرسےہمارےدیشکی آزادی کی چھاونی رہےہیں۔ ابمدرسوںکےبارےمیں یہباتکہیں،اسکوپرمانتکرناچاہئے۔۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔۔

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA: I said some people....((Interruptions)...

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: It is her maiden speech. ...((Interruptions)... She should not be interrupted. ...((Interruptions)...

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ֟ ϴ֟ ֛, ָ ֲ ֯ ׻֋ ֋Ӆ ...(־֮֬)... ֤ ֲ ....(־֮֬)....

مولاناعبیداللہخاناعظمی : ی ی ی ی ǁ ی۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔ مجھےایسےمدرسوںکاثبوتچاہئے۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA: I said, some people misuse that platform. ...((Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIAN): Mr. Azmi, please sit down. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA: This said, Sir, I cannot but to refer to the role of the Sangh Parivar in the 1992 demolition and the ensuing violence that followed after or the horrible tragedy that befell in Gujarat when thousands of Muslims were massacred. Sir, all this creates ...

֮ ֮ ̴֕ : ֤֟ օ ....(־֮֬)... ֤֟ , ֤֟ օ ....(־֮֬)...

مولاناعبیداللہخاناعظمی : ی ی ۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔ اسکوکوئی آتنکوادنہیںکہتا،وہبھی آتنکوادتھا۔۔۔۔مداخلت۔۔۔۔

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Mr. Azmi, please sit down. ...((Interruptions)... Mrs. Bhartia, please proceed. ...((Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA: Sir, this has created a reservoir of grievances, grieves which is misused by our enemies to get recruits. But, Sir, the Sangh Parivar alone cannot be blamed for the politics of communalism. Perhaps the most embarrassing example is from Kerala, Sir, where both the leading parties LDF and UDF came in support of a person most wanted in Coimbatore blasts, Mr. Madani. (Contd by 4K)

-KLS-SSS/4K/7.20

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA (CONTD.): This is a sort of culmination this year. Sir, in March when a unanimous resolution was passed by the Assembly asking that he should be given parole and that he should be getting proper and better treatment, what kind of signal do we send, Sir, when Members of Parliament go and meet him and he is given five-star treatment? Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I am aware that the topic that we are dealing with is not an easy one. Terrorist cells now operate in very hard to detect modules. Technology has made their movement very easy. They no longer require large scale movements. Technology has actually made the mobility a lot more easier. It is a lot easier for them to operate out of readily available chemicals and make weapons. The obvious question, then, that arises, Sir, is that how do we deal with a situation like this. If I can quote the Prime Minister again when he spoke to the Chief Secretaries, he said and I quote, "We must recognise that past responses are inadequate in dealing with these problems which are of a different intensity, magnitude, scale and scope." I would only like to add, Sir, that our responsibility needs to be not only magnified but also qualitatively superior. I have a few suggestions, Sir. First, we should not appear to be a soft State. Our response to terror must be immediate and must be within the optimum time frame. For too long, people have thought of India as being a very soft State. Second, Sir, we need our laws to be a lot more stringent. The laws must serve as deterrent. It is not enough to say that, later on, cases happen. There are existing loopholes in the law which to my mind definitely need to be addressed. Sir, we also need to build capacity, looking at the larger face of terror which seems like it is here to stay globally. I think we need to see whether there is a need to augment our police, our intelligence services and the armed forces. I think, the Government would best know whether there is a need gap between their requirement and what they are getting. But, I would urge them to accord it the highest priority. Fourthly, Sir, I would like the Government to consider revisiting their decision once again having a position of Minister of Internal Security. This was the position that we have had. It has been tried and tested. The Home Ministry has vast responsibilities. But looking at the global trend, I think, this needs more focus and therefore, I would like to suggest that perhaps they may want to think of revisiting the earlier decision and re-instating a Minister for Internal Security. Sir, we also need to launch global offences and we need to urge the international community to punish those who shelter terrorist and for those who fund them. We need to bring pressure on the international community to bring those fugitives to justice who are today finding safer havens in other countries. Sir, despite, everything, world powers that seem to be fighting a war on terror, seem quite oblivious to what is happening in our part of the world. Is it a failure of our diplomacy, or is it that they are just very self-centred and very self-serving. They too have asked us for evidence but they perhaps have had much less evidence than we do when they went on to attack Iraq on the basis of Weapons of Mass Destruction. Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, this is an area where perhaps a lot has been done but a lot more needs to be done. In 2001 and in 2004, the UN passed two resolutions, Resolution - 1273 and Resolution - 1566, calling on countries not to back terrorism and to stop their funding. Yet, strangely, Sir, the UN has not defined what terrorism means. To my mind in our book, the definition should be very simple. Any organisation or any individual who inflicts violence on innocent citizens under the garb of any course is a terrorist. But, yet the simple truth seems to elude the world body. From all this we need to understand, Sir, that it is each nation for itself. We have to look after our self-interest. But what we need to do before that Sir, is to have unified political strategy to isolate terror. If we speak in divided voices, Sir, I am afraid, we are not going to make much progress. After a unified political strategy we then need to have an integrated administrative approach to try and finish it off. Sir, in my view -- this is the last part, I will finish quickly -- in my view, I am not condoning terrorist or terrorism but yet, I feel that we need to look at the pool of grievances, real or imagined, that actually lead to such a situation from where people find easy recruits and the pool of grievances, Sir, is different in different cases. (Contd. by NBR/4L)

-SSS/NBR-NB/4L/7.25.

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA (CONTD.): As far as the Maoists are concerned, I think, we need to invest better in education, more on health, job opportunities, redressal in a better system of justice. We need to sort out land-related issues as well. However, there is a bit of danger when we try and think of Maoists as misguided youth. One has to only look at their track record of killing, of murder and directed all at poor people, basically, tribals and the rural poor. It is a dangerous trend. And it is a trend which has spread to over 150 poorest districts of this country.

In conclusion, Sir, I would like to remind the House, there can be no development and no progress unless our citizens are safe and secure. I would like to urge the Government to fulfil this basic responsibility. But, as the legislators of the highest body, it is also our duty to try and assist the Government by earning them the financial and legal powers that they required to do its job. Thank you. (Ends)

SHRI LALIT SURI (UTTAR PRADESH): Thank you Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, for giving me time to speak on blasts in Mumbai.

Sir, our country is very peculiarly placed. We have one neighbour, Pakistan, on the one hand and we have Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh on the other. Unfortunately, none of them is very friendly with us. This is the situation which we are facing and this is the situation which we have to live with. There are a handful of terrorists whose only aim is to create terror, destruction and difference in caste and religion. India has been a victim of terrorism for a long-time. The main aim and philosophy of these terrorists is the one that is based on blood. India faced with four major attacks by the terrorists. The first one is the attack that took place on Parliament. That was an attack on the Centre and the Government. The other one was an attack that took place in Varanasi and in Akshardham in Gujarat. That was an attack on culture and the Centre. Mumbai attack is an attack on a commercial centre. Srinagar and Doda attacks are the attacks on the sovereignty of India. Sir, you see this pattern. There is a well-planned pattern in which terrorists are progressing and are gaining ground in our country in creating terror and in creating these destructions. There are 165 districts in our country which are under the grip of Maoists. We are, therefore, a soft target for the terrorists and their agenda. What we have to do is, we have to strengthen our intelligence agencies so that we have enough modern equipment the world has moved on, the surveillance system has moved on and the latest technology. For example, last year, there was a bomb blast in the UK. But, through the CCTV, which was placed in all underground tube-stations, they were able to detect terrorists and they could succeed in capturing them. We are lacking in all this. And this is where the Government has to concentrate on training, on getting equipment and strengthening the intelligent agencies.

Sir, we have seen the 1993 blasts that took place in Mumbai. Today, it has announced that the judgment will come on 10th of next month. Over thirteen years have passed and if this is the amount of time which is going to take for giving judgment, I think, the procedures and the policies and the legislation should be stronger whereby we can tackle with them in time so that these things are not repeated.

There is another fear. It came out today that the Mumbai High Court has given directions that the properties belonging to Dawood should be destroyed. I fear, under these circumstances, there will be repercussions and there will be a complete, again, terror in Mumbai which has to be now looked into straight away and see that the things that had happened are not repeated. (CONTD. BY USY "4M")

NBR-USY/HMS/4M/7.30

SHRI LALIT SURI (CONTD.): Sir, I think, our people in Mumbai and the country have shown a lot of resilience. They have not reacted. They have not taken any revenge. But that does not mean that there is no anger in them; that does not mean there is no anger in the country. The anger in Mumbai and the country should be there, but there should be resilience. It is up to the Government to decide what they have to do and how firmly they have to deal with these people. Over fifteen days have passed, and we really don't know what exactly is happening to the people who have created this terror. We straightaway blame Pakistan when any terrorist act is there. We have reason and we should have a reason. But we should also realise that terrorism is here to stay. (Time-bell) We have to strengthen our people. We have to see that our own agencies are strong enough to counter this. Thank you. (Ends)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIAN): Now, Dr. K. Malaisamy.

SHRI N. JOTHI: He has gone, Sir. He will speak on Monday. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: No; no Monday. (Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Next, Prof. Ram Deo Bhandary. (Interruptions)

SHRI N. JOTHI: He must know his limits. (Interruptions) He is not the karta of this House. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: He had been fighting that this issue should be taken up first. (Interruptions) Now, how can he....(Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIAN): Prof. Ram Deo Bhandary. (Interruptions)

SHRI N. JOTHI: Big shouting will not give the reason....(Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Mr. Narayanasamy, please...(Interruptions) Now, Prof. Ram Deo Bhandary. (Interruptions)

SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY: Sir, calling 'joker' is unparliamentary.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Who called? That will not go on record. That is expunged. If it is there, it will be expunged. (Interruptions)

0 ִ ӛָ (ײָ) : ֮֮ߵ ֳ֬ , Ӳև Ù ™ߵ ֤ ׻֋ ֳ ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ׾ֵ ָ ֓ ֮ ߅ ׿־ ֮ ףֵ ֕ ֮ ָ օ ֟ ֮ ָ ï , ״ֻ֟-֟ ִ 0 ֮ , ָ ֕ ֤ ֟ Ӳև ִ Ù ָ ֓ ֤ ӳ߸ ? ֮ ֙ ֻ ֋ ׻֋ ֮ ָ ï פօ

, خ֤ ׻ ׾֤ خ֤ ԅ ֳ ꌿ , ִֻ֮, և ֳ ֙ خ֤ , ֮ ֮ ָ above party-line. (4 N/ߋ־ ָ ֿ:)

PSV/4N/7.35

0 ִ ӛָ (֟) : ֙ և ָ ָ ֓ 껵֮ ׮ֻ֮ , ָ ֟פ ֓ 1993 օ ֳ ֟ ֮֟ ٻִֵ ָ ֣ ٴ ãֆ ָ ִ Õ֤ ָ օ ֱ ִ-ãֻ ָ , ׻ ûִ ִ-ãֻ ָ օ , ֤֟ , ן , ִ ִϤֵ օ ֮ ֟ ֤֟ ׾ָָ֓ , ֕ , ִ օ ָ - ֜ ֵ, ֮ , ָ ֻ ֋ 㴲և ״֮ ß֮ ִ ׻ֵ , וִ ׳־ӛ ָ֮ ״ ...(־֮֬)... ָ ֱ ܵ ׳־ӛ ...(־֮֬)... 㴲և ָ ...(־֮֬)...

׾ֵ֕ ָ : ֮ , ֮ ...(־֮֬)...

0 ִ ӛָ : ֮ օ ...(־֮֬)...

׾ֵ֕ ָ : , ֮֯ ֮ օ ...(־֮֬)...

0 ִ ӛָ : , ָ ֮ ִ ׻ֵ , ֯ ֮ օ

ָ, ָ ײָ ֟ ָ ֱ ܵ ָ߲ - ֻֿ ֱ ׳־ӛ, ׻ 㴲և ָ ã֮ ֟ ָ ָ ִ ִϤֵ ֮ և ß֮ ֟ , ו ß : , ߛ , ָ ׻֋ ֟ ֲ ״ֻ 껵֮ , 껵֮ ꅠ ֮֮ߵ ӡ , ׮ֵ ӡ ֻ ֤ ֳָ ֌ ֲָ ״ֻ, ֲָ ״ֻ, ֲָ ״ֻ, ֟ ߮ 㴲և ֋ ָ , ֋ ֤ ï֙ ֋ ֕ ָָ ִܵӡ , ӡ ױ , ֣ ֟ ֣ ֓־ ֻ֟ ־ã , ־ã ߅ ֮ ֛ ֮ ָ օ ֕ ӡ ֵ֮ ֵ , ֲ 184 ֵ ֵֻ ֮ ֛ ܵ ֣ ֋ ֙ ֙߅ -ָߵ , 㴲և և և ִ ֱ , ֟ ֟ ֟פ ִֵ օ ִֻ خ , וִ ֱ֟ ״ֻ߅

֮ ׿־ ״֡ ֱ פ ֮֮ߵ ߮ և Ù ִ֮ , פ 㴲և ß־ß ֵ ָ ߅ ִֵ 㴲և ֮ ֮ , ־ã ֌׸ ֟ ãן פ ֳ ֵ ֵ օ ָ , ֮ ߛ ִ ֟פ ֮֮ ׿ (4 ָ ֿ:)

4O/klg/7.40

0 ִ ӛָ (֟) : ָ ְ ָ ָ ׮ֿ֮ ֵ ֱ֟ ״ֻ ևԅ

, ָָ ִֻ ֮ ֛, ֌׸ ־ã ֲ֕ ֛߅ ָ әߕ , ָ әߕ , ִ ֤õ בָ , ו֮ ֣ ָ ӲӬ , ׿ֿ , ֟ ָ ӲӬ ָ, ָ ָ ֮ ׾ ָ ׾ ָ ֮ ִ ? - Ӥ, ׾ֵ ֮ ֟ ֻ ָ ֌׸ ָ Ù , ָ ָ ֟

, ֮ ֟פ ܵ -߮ ֵ, ן ֱ ֟־ָ ֋ ֲֻ֟ ָ ִֻ֮ ָ ֲֻ֟ ָ , ֵֻ , ִ , ִֻ֮, , և ֲ , ָ ֟פ ֲֻ֟ ָ ֵ, ֟ ֟־ָ , ׾׳֮ ִֆ ߓ ֱ օ

ֳ֬ (0 .. ׸֮) : ӛָ , ߕ, ו֋

0 ִ ӛָ : ָ, ֳ ־֮֬ ֺ ֟ , ִ , ו ֕ ֕ ߓ ָ ֱ

, ™ߵ Ͽ ™ߵ Ͽ ׻֋ ֮ ָָ ־ֲ֤ ׬ , ָ ָָ ™ߵ Ͽ ֳ ֺ , Ӳև , Ӳև ֮֟ ߛ ֛ ִ օ , , , ׮ ֤ כ , ֵֻ , ֤ , ָ ֣ ֣, ֣ ֤֟ ֲֻ ֛օ ָ , ֲ֕ ֤֟ ֜

ֲ ֣, ֳ֬ , ֯ ֮־֤ - ֮־֤ (ִ֯)

֕߾ ㌻ (ָ™) : ֳ֬ , Ӳ- , ,

֮־ָ, Ӳև ִ ׾ñ ֤ þֵ ֵ , ֲ ïֻ֟ ֵ , Ϭִ֮ӡ ֣ ֵ օ ָ ãן ֮ ֮ ֵ֕ ׻ֵօ ֲ ӲևԾֵ ֮־֤ , ֟פ ֤ , ָ ֵօ ֤֟ ֮ , և ߓ ߾ָ ֮ , ֮ ֤֟, ֤֟ , ӲևԾֵ ָ ֤ ֋ ֮֕ן ֮־֤ , ָ ֮֕ן ֵ֤ ׻֋ Ӥ ֋ ֟ ֤֟ ֛֮ ֮ , ָ ֵ , ֲִֵ ֟ , ָ ֮֕ן ӵִ ׸ֵ פ, -ָ ֤ , ֋ , ִֻ֮ , , և , ֲ ״ֻ ֋, ïֻ֟ ֋ ֟ߕ ָ פ ֟־ָ ִ֮ ֵ ָ ֙ֆ ֤ ֻ-։ , ֻ-։ ֵօ ֲ ֟ ׻֋ ֮־֤ ӲևԾֵ , ֮֕ן ִܵӡ , ו֮ ָ פ ־Ԥߵ ؙ ֲ ׾ ׻ֵ ֟ ӳ־ ևԅ 4/ ָ ..

AKA-PB/4P/7:45

֕߾ ㌻ (֟) : ֮־ָ, ֱ , ֳ ֌ֆ ֟פ ִ ֕ , ָ ӡ -߮ ָ ֮ ֻ ֟ IB , ־֮ և ߅ ־֮ ָ֮ ָ , ïױ ־֮ ֟ ֻ , ֻ ә׻֕֠ ׌ ә׻֕ ӓ ױ ׸և ֲ֕ ֮֮ ׿ֿ , ָ ֮ פ ֮

ָ, ׻י ׻֋ , ӡֵֻ ߕ ׻֋ ֻ֯ ׻י ֻܵ ֮֜ 㴲և ׻֋, ֟פ ׮ֿ֮ ָ , ֟ ׿ֿ ָ ָ 㴲և כÙ ָ Ծ־ã ֙ , ָ ֕ օ ָ ֕ ׻֋ 㴲և ׮ֿ֮ ֵ֮ ֟ , ׻֋ 㴲և ׻ ֛ ֮֮ ׻֋, ׌֯ ׻֋ ӡ ׻י ֮ ֮֜

֟ ָ '' ևԅ ֮ և ï™ ֯ ו '' ֟ , ܟ ֮ ָ™ '' '' ֙ ևԅ ֱ ֮ ֮ '' ׾֮֕ , ָ֤֟ ׾֮֕ 'ֻ ׯϾ֮ ׌׾֙ ֮' ִ פ ֋ , ִ ״ֻ ׻֋ ָ ֯ ִ֟ ֱ '' ֋ ֱ ָֻ֮ ״-և ֟ , օ ָ ֮ ִ ֵ֮ ֵ , ߮ ߮ ִ ִ֮֟ , 'ֻ ׯϾ֮ ׌׾֙ ' 녠 ֻܵ ָݵ ײֻ ߮ , ׮ ײֻ

֟ ֯ , ֵ - ָ ֤֟ ָ ֤֟ ֤֟ ֲ ׿ָ , ֲ ָָ ֤֟ , ӟָ™ߵ ִõ , ׾ ִõ ָָ , ֲֻ ִ ָ ִ֮ , ָ ִ֮ օ 0 ֮ , ֟ և ߅ NDA ָָ 1999 2004 ׻Ù , ֜ , ֛-֛ 63 ֙֋ , וִ֮ ָ ָ ֋ , ִֵ ֕ , ָָ և, ׻֋ ִֵ ִ ָ ֻ , ִָ ָ , ֻ ָ ֻ , ֤ ָ ֻ , ֣ פ ָ ֻ , כ ߸ ָ , ֱ כ, 㴲և , ֻ , 60 ֱ כ ֻ ָ ֋, ߆ָߋ ָ ֻ , ӛ ־ Ù֮ ָ օ

ָ : ֌ ֯ NDA , ֌ ֯ ֣ ןֵ ֮֟

֮֮ߵ ֤õ : וָ֬ ֯ ֟ , ָ

֕߾ ㌻ : ֯ ִ ן ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ן ִ , ֯ þֵ þָ ֤

ָ : ֯ ֌ NDA

֕߾ ㌻ : ֢ ׾֯ ֋

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Mr. Shukla, please address the Chair. ...(Interruptions)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ָָ ָ ֋ ..(־֮֬).. ָָ ׾֯ ֋ ꅠ ..(־֮֬)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Amar Singhji, please don't disturb. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Shukla, please address the Chair. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Shukla, please address the Chair. ...(Interruptions)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ָָ ׾֯ ֋ , ׾֯ ָָ ֻ ֋ ꅠ ָָ ׾֯ ֋ ꅠ ֲ Ӭ , ָ ֻ ֢ ֋, 'כ ևخ' ֻ , ֲ ֵ ..(־֮֬).. ֿ־ӟ ֮ ӡ ֮ , ֲ ֵ օ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ָ ״ֻ ֠ ..(־֮֬)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please address the Chair. What is this? ...(Interruptions)...

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ, 00 ֻ כÙ , ..(־֮֬)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please do not disturb. ...(Interruptions)... Please don't do it. This is such a serious discussion and you are taking it lightly. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: Yes; Sir. ...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: It is not about you. Please address the Chair.

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ ֵ ֵ ָָ ׸ ִֻ ָ ִֻ , ִ օ ߸ ֕ ָ ֋ , ָ ֋, ֮ ָ ֯־ ָ ָ000 ֙ ָ ׾ֱ פ ֵ ָָ ֕ ? ָ ß֮ ֲ ־֮ և ֻ ֟ פ ֵ ָָ ? ('4Q/SCH' ָ ָ)

SKC/SCH/4Q/7.50

֕߾ ㌻: , ִ , ֯ , ֚Ӭ֮ ָָ , ׸ ִֻ ָ , ׻֋ ָָ ֱֻ ָ ָ ײֻ ד֟ ָ, ֮ ֣ ֕ ׸Ù ֟ ָ ֵָ  * ...(־֮֬)

ֵӟ ֻ ָ: ֮ פ ...(־֮֬) ֮ פ ...(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please, don't disturb. Please, don't do that ...(interruptions)... Please, don't disturb...(interruptions)...

SHRI SURENDRA LATH: He has made a wild allegation...(interruptions)... ׮ֵ֤ ָ ...(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please, don't disturb. You can speak when your turn comes...(interruptions)...

֕߾ ㌻: ֤ ָ ...(־֮֬) ֤ ָ ֮ ?...(־֮֬) ֤ ָ ֤ -֤ ߱ ֮֯ ...(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Don't listen to them. You continue with your speech. Don't listen to them...(interruptions)...Please, don't disturb...(interruptions)...

֕߾ ㌻: ֿ־ӟ ֮ ָ ִֵ ׾֢ ӡ , ֮ ָ פ ꅠ ִֵ þ ֲ ֛ ֤ ׻ ֕ ? ֲ ?

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: He has referred to me. This issue has already been clarified -- there was a demand and the demand was rejected by the Government of India, by the Cabinet Committee on Security. So, the question of any payment did not arise.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Expunged as ordered by the chair.


SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA
: This is what you claim. But what is the truth?...(interruptions)...

֚: ֵֻ ..(־֮֬) ֮֕ן

..(־֮֬) ֯ ֟פ ...(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): No, no, that has been explained by your leader, please, sit down....(interruptions).. That is enough. He has explained it. ֯ ך

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: How did the Taliban reconcile?...(interruptions)...How did Taliban reconcile?...(interruptions)... Do you think that ...(interruptions)...

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Sir, this issue was raised in this House....(interruptions)...The issue had been raised in this House by an hon. Member who has now retired and he apologised...(interruptions)... he apologised...(interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, what Mr. Yashwant Sinha is saying is all on paper..(interruptions)...Kindly say the truth. You are talking about the Cabinet Committee; that is on the paper...(interruptions)...

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: Do you think the Taliban would be concerned with your strictures? ...(interruptions)...

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: The same issue had been raised by a Member of the Treasury Benches and that gentleman then apologised...(interruptions)...

SHRI B.K. HARIPRASAD: He has raised an issue. Let the Government...(interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You may continue...(interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: You are telling about...(interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: He has explained that. Don't...(interruptions).. Mr. Sinha has already explained it. ֯ ך He has explained it. It is on record. Please,...(interruptions)... his explanation is on record. ..(interruptions)... Mr. Narayanasamy, please...(interruptions)... He has explained. It is on record...(interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: What is the inside story?...(interruptions)...

SHRI SURENDRA LATH: Sir, wild allegations have been made...(interruptions)...

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, it must be expunged...(interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: You are telling us..(interruptions)... We want to know what the inside story is...(interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): It is on record..(interruptions)...

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, why is he talking about it?...(interruptions)...You must expunge it. How can he say...(interruptions)...

SHRI SHATRUGHAN SINHA: If you could just yield for a minute...(interruptions)...Sir, we are all very fond of Rajeev Shukla. He is a very nice person. He speaks very well; he has done his homework. But, at the moment, what he is alleging or whatever he is saying is not substantiated. If he is saying...(interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: But that has been rebutted by your own leader. So, you don't worry about that. It is on the record.

SHRI SHATRUGHAN SINHA: Yes, Sir, but either he should disclose the source or he should substantiate what he is saying. That is what I am trying to say. There is nothing against Mr. Rajeev Shukla, he is a good friend of mine and he is a good friend of the House also, Sir. But, the only thing is "֓-֓ ִ , ִ ִ " ֲ ִ֟ ֯ ֟և ֯ , ֯ ֲÙ׿֋ ?

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: Sir, I only want to know from Shri Yashwant Sinha how did Taliban reconcile.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your time is being...(interruptions)...

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: They reconciled even after your rejection and you agreed to their demand! Everybody knows Taliban. They would not agree to Govt. of India's rejection of their demands. Can they?...(interruptions)... When they are not willing to listen to anybody, can they reconcile?...(interruptions)...

֚: ָ, ֟ ָ ֮ ?

ֿ־ӟ ֮: ָ ׻ֲ֮ ß ָ ֮ ״ֻ ֤ ָ ׻ֲ֮ ֵ֟ ?

֕߾ ㌻: ֬ ֮ ־֮ ...(־֮֬) ֮ ...(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please, Mr. Shukla, you go to your next point...(interruptions)...Because that has already been replied to...(interruptions)...Go to your next point. ...(interruptions)... Don't repeat it...(interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: We want to know the inside story. He is talking about other things. What happened...(interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please, go to the next point. (Followed by 4r/hk)

HK-MCM/4r/7.55

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: I want to know the inside story. ..(Interruptions).. What happens to Rs. 500 crores? ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please go to the next point. ..(Interruptions)..

֕߾ ㌻֠ : ָ, ֟ ֮ , ֟ ֮ ־֮ ꅠ ֮ օ ֲ ׻, ֟ ԅ ֿ־ӟ ֮ ֮֟ ֮ ֮, כ օ ָ, ָ ָ ָ , և00և0 ָ .....(־֮֬) և00և0 ָ ֵ և ָ ֋ꅠ ֮־ָ, ־ ֣ ָ և00և0 ֲ ֤ ֙֋, ָ և00և0 ֲ ֤ 1999 2004 ߓ

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: I have a point of order.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): There is no time. Please.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, I have a point of order.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Okay. Under what rule? Give me the rule.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Please read 'Rajya Sabha Ruling and Observation from the Chair.' Page No.123. It says, "Allegations need to be substantiated." It is in the Rule Book that if you are making allegation against any Member of the House, you should give prior notice for it. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Have you been following the rules?

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: He is making allegations against the Leader of the Opposition. Has he given any notice for that or not?....(־֮֬) ָ ׮֋, ӟ ־ ֯ ӡ 1984 ֋ ׻֋ ֲ ׮ֵָ ֮ ׮ֵָ 28 ָ, 2000 ֤ - Ù פ ״׮Ù օ ֜, ׻ ֵ ִ녠 ֮ ֲ֙֋ ׬ָ ֮녠 ֻ ֡׸ ײ֮ ֯ ׸֛ ֵ פ ֲ ׯϴ֮ ׮ֻ ֵ ֯ ׸֛ ָ-ָ ֮

֕߾ ㌻ : ֲ֙֋ ־֮ .....(־֮֬)

00 ׻ֵ : ָ ֟ ֟ ׸: Sir, I want your ruling on this. ..(Interruptions).. I want your ruling on this. ..(Interruptions).. If you make any allegation against any Member, you should give prior notice. ..(Interruptions)... Has he given any notice to Shri Jaswant Singh? If he has not given, when he is making allegations he should substantiate them. ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please take your seat ..(Interruptions).. Please ..(Interruptions)..

֕߾ ㌻ : ֟ ֟և ֮ ֲ֙֋ ׻֋ ׾֛ ֺ ...(־֮֬) ִֵ ׾֤ ӡ ֣ ֵ ֕ .....(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shukla, please. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: He is again making allegations. ..(Interruptions).. He is again making allegations without giving prior notice. ..(Interruptions).. He is not presiding the House. ..(Interruptions).. If he has guts, tell him to give the notice. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: The Vice-Chairman is on his legs. ..(Interruptions)..

00 ׻ֵ : .....(־֮֬)

֕߾ ㌻ : ֯ .......(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: If you have made a personal allegation against the Leader of the Opposition, I have to see the record. If a personal allegation is made against the Leader of the Opposition, then, you should have taken the prior permission. The record has to be seen. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Please see the record. ..(Interruptions).. Adjourn the House and recall the record. ..(Interruptions)..

֕߾ ㌻ : ָ,.....(־֮֬)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Recall the record. ..(Interruptions).. He is again making allegations. ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: I will take my seat, Sir. But my point is ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): I have listened your point of order. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: I heard him. ..(Interruptions).. Adjourn the House and recall the record. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA: I am referring the book. ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You are referring the book. You should authenticate it. ..(Interruptions).. (Contd. by 4s/KSK)

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