The House met at two of the clock,

MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair.


MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition.

THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (SHRI JASWANT SINGH): Sir, I am to make a submission and also an appeal. The submission is, of course, to the entire House and the appeal that I make is to the hon. Defence Minister. Sir, perhaps he has been in this House for the longest period. And he was the Leader of the House when I first came in this House. It was very long back. It is no one's intention to cause any hurt to anybody. I won't go into the context of the question that was raised and the circumstances. But, the response thereafter from the Government disappointed the hon. Members who had raised it. I would request the hon. Defence Minister, the Leader of the other House, to assure the House that no offence was meant. For somebody who has been in this House for so many years, I have no doubt and I don't think he intended the offence. I believe that the discussions that we are to hold on the bomb blasts is such an important discussion, not that the question that was raised by Dr. Joshi is not important or vital. But we must hold this discussion. I appeal, therefore, to Shri Pranab Babu if he could do the needful.

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE): Sir, with your permission, first of all, most respectfully, I would like to submit that it has never been my intention and it will never be my intention to convey any sense of disrespect to this House of which I am the product. It is not today -- just in this very month in 1969, I entered into this House -- it has been so many years. I am perhaps one of the Members, to be present in the House throughout. When I was a private Member, from 11 a.m. in the morning till the House was adjourned, if anybody was present in the House, it was me. And I always consider myself as the product of Rajya Sabha. Whatever I am today is the contribution of the Rajya Sabha. I thought that I should speak in a humorous manner and said like instant coffee, for an instant reaction, the matter is too serious and it requires structured response from the Government, it has very wider clarifications. That is the sense I wanted to convey, but perhaps, as the hon. Leader of the Opposition said, the situation is so surcharged. And it was in the context of so many serious developments that are taking place that perhaps my humour could not be caught. But, if anybody is hurt because of my observations, although I never meant it, I am sincerely sorry for it. Even when I was late, I got a compliment from Mr. Ahluwalia. I was just late by a fraction of a minute, but immediately, I got up and apologised that I did not reach the House in time. So, I do feel that any of my colleagues will not have any hurt feeling for that and I most respectfully submit that the House should resume its normal business. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Sir, and I also thank the Leader of the Opposition for giving me this opportunity. (Ends) (Followed by RSS/1s)


MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, we take up the Short Duration Discussion on the increasing incidents of terrorist violence in the country, particularly in the context of recent bomb blasts in Mumbai...(Interruptions)...

SHRI ARUN SHOURIE: Sir, I am on a point of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please leave this matter.

SHRI ARUN SHOURIE: Sir, I am not on that matter. I am on a different point. Sir, an important point Shri Pranab Mukherjee has made about the disclosure that have come about Pakistan's nuclear capability, and I am sure, that in view of what importance you attach to the subject, you will respond to that concern that was expressed.

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE): It will be a structured response.

SHRI ARUN SHOURIE: Sir, we all want that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Manohar Joshi. I am sorry. Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi. You decide between yourselves.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, it does not matter, which of the Manohar Joshi's speak.



SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (MAHARASHTRA): Sir, I am here to raise the discussion on an important issue which was discussed the other day also in the House, and it is decided to discuss today the Short Duration Discussion on Mumbai blasts, and also the bomb blasts all over the country. Sir, I am thankful to you for giving me this opportunity to start this discussion. I am also thankful to the leaders of different groups in the House that they considered the request of my party yesterday, and as early as possible, that is, today, this discussion is being started. Sir, at the outset, I want the entire House to decide what further action should be taken unanimously in order to avoid such bomb blasts in future. I also think that this issue is above the party lines, and the discussion which will take place here should be in the most serious manner, and we will be able to find out some solution to avoid such atrocities not only in Mumbai, but also in other parts of our country. The incident took place in Mumbai on 11th July, 2006. I am sure that it is not required to say much about the incident because everybody has heard about the incident, and also seen the same on the electronic media what has happened. Sir, 7 high intensity bombs ripped through the compartments of the Western Railway trains between 6.24 p.m. and 6.34 p.m. The whole thing happened only in 10 minutes' time. It is said that more than 200 people have unfortunately died. They were all innocent people, and more than 1,000 people have been injured. The people lost different parts of their bodies. Some people lost their eyes, some people lost their hands and some people lost their legs. Sir, I was in my office, and it took me 10 minutes' time to reach the place of incident from my office. I immediately rushed to the spot, and what I saw over there, I have no words to express. The people were dying. Some people were shouting, some were crying, some were requesting for help. I went from Matunga station to Mahim station. (contd. by 1t)


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (contd.): I reached there within 20 minutes, and the whole scene was shocking. Sir, this is not the first time that I happened to witness such type of incidents. When the terrorists attacked Parliament, I was present in the Parliament House, -- I was a Member of the Lok Sabha at that time -- and I saw how the terrorists could strike at the Parliament House itself. Before that, in 1993, when a similar bombing incident took place in Mumbai, more than 250 people got killed and about 1800 people were injured. I went from place to place and saw what happened during the bomb blasts. Sir, the most important subject to be discussed today is about the bomb blasts that took place not only in Mumbai but also in other parts of the country. I would go into the details as to whether there is any remedy to stop this. People are not happy with just condolences. They want firm action. The people cannot speak, but we, as representatives of the people of our country can, definitely, take a serious note of this and express in this House what exactly the people of India want. I went to some of their houses also. The people are not interested in knowing how much money the Government of India is going to pay them or, for that matter, what amount they are going to get from the Maharashtra Government. The people are asking us: "Can you bring back our father? Can you bring back our mother? Can you bring back our children?" I remember when I went to one suburbs of Mumbai, Borivilli, a police constable had been killed in the bomb blast and his mother was crying. She was asking us: "What can you do for us? After three months, we are going to get a notice to vacate the House because my son is no more." And, when I asked the Government officials what they are going to do about their houses, it is very unfortunate that the reply from the Government officer was, "We will do as per the rules." This is a good reply. But is it not the responsibility of the Government to give safety to the citizens of our country? Is the Government satisfied that they are giving enough security to the innocent people of our country? Therefore, the purpose of this debate is to ask the Government: Should we forget about the people who have got killed or do we remember them for further action? My question to the Government is this. Can they assure this House categorically that henceforth the terrorists would not dare to throw bombs on innocent citizens? This happened, as I said, in 1993, and the unfortunate part is that 13 years have passed by, but the culprits have still not been punished. The simple reply which the Government would give is that the matter is sub judice. But can the Government say that there is no mistake on the part of the Government for not coming to a decision on this matter? Everybody knows that in the bomb blasts that took place in 1992-93, Dawood was responsible. (Continued by TDB/1U)


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.): My question is, what happened to the matter relating to surrender of Dawood back to our country? Why is it not being done? I remember, during the NDA Government, a demand was made to Pakistan that the main culprit of 1992-93 Mumbai bomb blasts was Dawood and his other accomplices should be deported to our country. What has happened to that? If it is not...(Interruptions)... Please listen to me. This is a serious matter. If this is not done, why was it not done? Why do we again say that we want to discuss it with Pakistan? We have just forgotten that in 1992-93, under the leadership of Dawood, hundreds and thousands of people were killed in Mumbai, and nothing is being done to book them and to punish them. Why? I want a reply from the hon. Minister as to why no action is being taken against people like Dawood.

Sir, I also remember that in Jammu and Kashmir, bomb blasts have become everyday affair. Sometimes, I really feel that there is no sense in discussing these issues in the House. About Jammu and Kashmir, we read in the Press, because those places are at a very long distance, and we do not feel the pinch to the extent that is happening in Mumbai. But, who are the people being killed there? They had some reason to do it because they wanted that Kashmir should become a part of Pakistan, or, they wanted that Kashmir should become an independent country. There is some reason for that. It is said that so far, in Mumbai 110 bomb blasts have taken place. How many people have been killed in these bomb blasts? Thousands of people have been killed. This is not the only incident. But, Sir, if such incidents take place, sometimes in a bus, sometimes in a street, are we not supposed to act? Can inaction be an action on these issues? We have no courage to take action against them! What is the number of these terrorists and what is the number of the police personnel working with the Government? Therefore, Sir, my first question, while starting this debate is, whether you are serious in stopping terrorism in our country. Are you serious about it? If you are really serious, then, everything can be done. I know what the Government means. I don't want just a reply that we will try our best. When will you try your best? When will you do it? Are you going to act after some more incidents take place? Or, are you going to assure us that such things will permanently be stopped? The terrorists only killed the ex-Prime Ministers of our country, not only once but twice. Indiraji was killed and Rajivji was also killed, unfortunately, by the terrorists. Sir, killing the Prime Minister of a country is not an ordinary thing. They may be the terrorists from one part or the other part. That is not the question at all. But, are we not ashamed that such things are taking place in our country? The death of 200 people in Mumbai is a pinch for thousands of people in Mumbai. Sir, we always used to say that we are proud of the city of Mumbai. Now, it is unfortunate that the city of Mumbai has become the most dangerous place to live in, and people have no faith that the present Government will be able to do anything in this case. Why are the terrorists involved in incidents, which I mentioned, not being arrested and killed?

(Contd. by kgg/1w)


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (contd.): Is the Human Rights Commission more important than this Parliament or this country? I know, yesterday, while speaking in the Lok Sabha, the hon. Minister has replied, "We have to look to the Human Rights Commission and take action." I personally feel that let the Human Rights Commission do their duty, and the Government must do their duty and stop this type of things under any circumstances.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I did not say that we have to look to the Human Rights Commission. But I told that we have to care for the human rights.

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Therefore, I say that the Human Rights Commission cannot be more important than the lives of the people. That is my point. That cannot be more important than this.

I saw yesterday what the hon. Minister has said. If he wants to say in this House also that we have to care for the Human Rights Commission, then I would definitely say that more important is the lives of our people and, therefore, anybody cannot come between the action of the Government and the Government itself. For instance, I raised the issue in this very House itself the issue of RDX and I have got a copy of the proceedings when I raised the issue on 18th May, 2006. It was about the RDX which was found in different parts of Maharashtra. I am reading from the proceedings of the House. I had said, "Firstly, it was found in Aurangabad and it was found in Manmad. Now, recently, three days back, about twelve Kgs. of RDX was found in other cities like Malegaon, etc." I also had mentioned the names of persons who were arrested for storing this RDX. They are: Mohammad Amir Ahmed, Muzaffer Ahmed, Syed Zaheer, and Abdul Azmi. These were the people who were arrested. I had warned the Government at that time that during 1992-93 bomb-blasts, only 27 Kgs. of RDX was enough to kill 400 people. And now, the RDX found is 50 Kgs. I warned the Government to take notice of this and take immediate action. I had also requested the Government to support the police personnel and provide for additional force, if necessary. My question is: What is the importance of this House? After raising this issue in the month of May, no reply is received from the Government. No reply at all. I would like to know whether this august House has any importance or not. What was the number of personnel provided, I would like to know. I would like to know whether any inquiry was made with the Maharashtra Government. I would like to know, on all these issues, from the hon. Minister when he replies to the debate. What was done after this issue is raised in this House? I have read from the proceedings and I think, nothing is done. In total, 50 Kgs. of RDX is found in different parts of Maharashtra. Was it not something serious? Why did the Government not take serious note of this issue? And then what happened?

Sir, I also have an issue of Mumbai Mirror. When Raju Rathor was travelling in the train--there is a photograph also--he tried to save one person who was in the same compartment. He tried to pull him by his tie. He says, "I pulled him by his tie and realised that his head was severed." Only the tie came to his hands and the head was not found. It means, Sir, the whole thing is so serious and in this case, nothing has been finally done. (contd. by kls/1x)


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD): The hon. Prime Minister, the Home Minister and also some other people visited the city of Mumbai. I think Shrimati Sonia Gandhi was also with them. It is a good thing because I know they immediately rushed to the spot. It is definitely good and I do appreciate that. Mr. Home Minister would be able to remember that the Prime Minister had said that he had informed the Government of Maharashtra earlier that such incidents may take place. I take this statement of the Prime Minister very seriously that after such a statement also the Government of Maharashtra -- as far as my information goes, 40 days before the Prime Minister told -- why did the Government of Maharashtra not take action, Sir? After the incident what action have you taken against the Government of Maharashtra? You do not take action because that belongs to your party. Are the hands of the hon. Minister tied? What is the reason? If the number one person of the country informs the Chief Minister of the State, if no action is taken, what should we understand from this? According to me, this also requires immediate reply from the hon. Minister. My raising the issue in the House is not useful, the Prime Minister's warning them 40 days earlier is not useful. And therefore, I have to ask the Government what is the report sent to you by the Maharashtra Government on the whole incident? What have they said? That report cannot be a secret matter. This House is fully in a position to know and ask the Government what is the report that you have received from the Government of Maharashtra, what they have said, why this happened and why they were inactive. I personally feel and also fortunately yesterday the hon. Home Minister in the House while replying had said that there was probably the intelligence failure in Maharashtra. These may not be the exact words. But what I could gather is this. He said that the Central Government intelligence is strong enough but in Maharashtra or in State Governments in general the intelligence is not working. May I tell you, Sir, there is no intelligence like thing in Maharashtra. How many officers are working? Where are they trained? Can the Minister tell me? Sir, I was the Chief Minister of Maharashtra and, therefore, I know this issue that the intelligence of the Government of Maharashtra is very weak. This has been admitted by different people, by police people also while giving interview to the media. Sir, intelligence is not working and the Minister also, I remember, said yesterday that right from Kotwal previously the machinery was good but now that Kotwal machinery is not working. Kotwal may be like a police, sarpanch or panch in a village. So, if there is a failure of the intelligence in Maharashtra, is it not the failure of the Government of Maharashtra? Why no intelligence? I know there is always a shortage of police personnel. The shortage of police is in Maharashtra also. There are 40,000 police personnel and the population -- I am talking of Mumbai -- is more than one crore and fifty lakh. So, the police has this difficulty. But we are supposed to watch this. I am fully aware that the law and order is a matter of the State Government. They might have made a mistake, but, at the same time, is the Central Government not supposed to keep a watch? Everywhere in temples and busy places bombs are being cracked. In such places if such things happen, has the Government not to give alert notice and take action to see that they are acted upon and the Government orders are obeyed? But unfortunately, that is also not being done. Sir, the matters are not so simple.

(Contd 1Y)


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.): They were bringing the RDX, fixing the timer, running away from the place at the right time because only one terrorist was killed in accident, others had run away. They were signalling and also collecting the material necessary. Is it a chain of action that takes place before such actions? What were the Police doing? Are they not watching? The Railways had not provided enough police. I read a statement from hon. Home Minister of Maharashtra that Railways have not provided adequate police force. Unfortunately, Railway Minister is not here; otherwise, I would have asked him straight. Mumbai is the only place, Sir, where lakhs of people travel everyday by train and the life of all those people is in danger even today. Who is responsible? Do you want such discussions to take place in the House a number of times? I have personally seen that, Sir, discussions must have taken place during my tenure in Lok Sabha at least ten to fifteen times. I am not interested if the Government is not interested. I am not interested in a debate if action is not being taken. Sir, this requires, this chain of action requires lot of people. So, this is not an action by only seven bomb explosions. It means only seven people have done this? No. There is a chain of people who have done it and I must say here that the Prime Minister also made a Statement. He pointed to Pakistan that Pakistan must be behind this action. Sir, does anybody think that such type of actions, such type of bomb explosions can take place without the support from the local people and who are those local people? Fifteen to twenty days have passed. Why no culprit is being found out? The Minister had made a statement that in one week's time we will find out the culprit. What happened to that? Can we bluff the people every time? Are they supposed to be tolerant on these issues only? It is really not possible to be tolerant. Yes, you take firm actions. Who are the people involved? Is the Home Minister aware that in Maharashtra, at three to four places there are mini-Pakistans. I am ready to name places because in those places the people give a slogan, not 'Hindustan Zindabad' but 'Pakistan Zindabad'. Go to Mohammed Ali Road and find out what happens. Go to Malegoan and find out and go to Bhiwandi and find out what happens. Do you know, Sir, the issue is little connected with this. In Bhiwandi, the people wanted to construct a small Masjid or Dargah at one place. They had asked the Government for the place. The Police Department wanted to put up a police station. The Police started a construction. The people came and they started demolition of the construction in the presence of the Police. Unfortunately, when they started, the firing was to be done. The Police fired and it is very sad that two people died. But do you know what happened further? After the death of those two people, at night time, two police people were going for taking their dinner. They were massacred. The public came and killed them. The firing took place in the day time. At night time when somebody was going to take his meals, the people came and killed him on the spot. In such cases also, I want to know what action you are going to take. You want the law and order in Maharashtra or you don't want law and order? That is what happens and therefore, the terrorist feel that they can do anything in Maharasthtra. Have you, Mr. hon. Minister, inquired whether there is any connection of police firing with this particular bomb explosion in Railways? Why can't you stop that? Sir, every time it is not necessary that we should go to the extent of saying that Pakistan does everything. Then what happens to the local people who get into activities like this? We do not try to punish them. (Contd. by NBR/1Z)


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.): Sir, you are aware of what happened in Bhiwandi, what happened in Malegaon, what happened at places like Mohammad Ali Road and Bidar. Those are called mini-Pakistans. Mr. Minister, let me know this. Are you going to take action against those people who are anti-Indian and who give slogans of Pakistan? Is the hon. Minister going to be firm enough? If he has real concern for the people of this country, this has to be done. Otherwise, you may not be able to stop such incidents. Sir, you are aware of what happened last time. You are aware that Mr. Bush came to India. After he came to India, because he had attacked Iraq, the people of our country, the citizens of our country got angry, they came out in lakhs -- not in thousands -- not only in Mumbai but in all big cities and protested.

SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: I also went there. What is wrong in it?...(Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: I have no objection..(Interruptions)...

׸ ־ָ : ָ ϤԮ օ ....(־֮֬)... ָ Ӥ ϤԮ օ ֟ ֯? ...(־֮֬)...

֮ : ןָ ....(־֮֬)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: When the incidents of Mumbai explosions took place, why lakhs of people did not come out together in protest?...(Interruptions)...

SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY: Sir, what is he speaking? ...(Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN : Please don't disturb. Let him speak. Please take your seat...(Interruptions)... Please take your seat...(Interruptions)... This is for you to say. ..(Interruptions)...Let him finish. ..(Interruptions)... Please take your seat. ..(Interruptions)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, lakhs of people come out in protest against America. Why cannot the same people come out against the attacks?...(Interruptions)...That is my question...(Interruptions)...

׸ ־ָ : ֤֟ ָ ָ ....(־֮֬)...

ֳ֯ן : ך...ך ֯ ״ֻ, ִֵ ׻֋օ ..(־֮֬).... Please take your seat...(Interruptions)...

ָ֮ ״ : ָ, ״֮֙....(־֮֬)...

֮ : ָ, ׳־ӛ פ ...(־֮֬)... ֤ ׳־ӛ , ָ....(־֮֬)...

ָ֮ ״ : ָ, ֯ ִ֬ ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ׮־ ̟ ֛

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ֟

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ִ ̴֕ : *


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, my point is...(Interruptions)...

Please take your seat...(Interruptions)...You will get a chance to speak...(Interruptions)...Please take your seat...(Interruptions)... ֯ և ...(־֮֬)...

֮ : ׻ ָ פ, خ֤ , ߅ ֯ ...(־֮֬)...

ִ ̴֕ : , ?

شری ابو عاصم اعظمی : کرتے ہیں، کیوں نہیں کرتے ہیں؟

ֳ֯ן : , ֯ ך....ך...(־֮֬)...

ק : ֯ ..(־֮֬)...

شری شاھد صدیقی : آپ فرق کرتے ہیں۔

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ֮ ו֋ ꅠ ֯ ֲ ״ֻ, ִֵ ׻֋օ ...(־֮֬)...

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ֳ֯ן : ֯ ך...ך... (־֮֬)...

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: You feel sorry if I raise before the entire House about your press conference.


* Not recorded.

ֳ֯ן : ו֋, ֯ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)... ִֻ ӯ

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, I am not going to take up that issue because to me this is more important, the terrorist attacks are more important. But, Sir, somebody comes out and says that if you are more than us, we are also 20-crore and if we come on streets where will you go. Somebody asked us this question through press conference. Have you not noticed, Mr. Minister, if somebody comes and threatens us, the majority people....(Interruptions) (CONTD. BY USY "2A")


MR. CHAIRMAN: Please come to your point. (Interruptions)

ָ : , ֯ ߤ ֯ ָ ֟ ֟ ו ׾־֤ ...(־֮֬)..

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: I agree with you. I come to the main point.

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ևә ָ և (Interruptions) Please take your seat. (Interruptions)

ָ : ֲ ״ֻ ֛և ֤֟ ֱֻ ֛ ֤֟ -ִֻ֮ ן , ֕ , ..(־֮֬).. ֤֟-֤֟ ..(־֮֬)..

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SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: But, Mr. Minister, if you want honestly to stop this, if you want the terrorism to be controlled in the country, then, please try to understand who are the people who do it. In the Lower House also, the list was asked from you that whatever...(Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL): Sir, if he refers to whatever has taken place in the Lower House, it will be very difficult for me to reply in this House. You make the points in this House, I will reply to them.

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: No, I don't want you to reply differently in this House. (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will try to reply all the points you make here. Don't refer to the other House. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, this is my most important point that those people who did bomb explosions, those who are arrested, against whom the cases are registered, the list of all those people, the names of all those people should be brought before this House. I have been asking this for a long time, Sir. Who are those people? Most of them belong to a particular religion or a community. We know this. If they are belonging to a particular community, do you want that we are just to forget it? And, the culprits are not being booked only because....(Interruptions)

SHRI PRAVEEN RASHTRAPAL: Once again he is making a mistake. (Interruptions)

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ֮ , ֮

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, let me get an honest reply from the hon. Minister as to which community or religion these people belong to. It is a part of investigation. (Interruptions) Ninety per cent of the people belong to a particular religion. And, according to me, they may belong to any religion, but don't want you to provoke them. (Interruptions) The Government wants to safeguard them because their votes are secured. (Interruptions)

SHRI PRAVEEN RASHTRAPAL: Definitely not. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: You say, "Definitely not'. Why was the attack made only on the Western Railway? (Interruptions) Sir, there should not be any cross talk. (Interruptions) I should not be disturbed at all. Let me speak. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Come to the next point. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Chairman, Sir, in Gujarat riots....(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat. (Interruptions) Please take your seat. (Interruptions) Please let him speak. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: He should not speak in that language. Then, we will talk of Gujarat riots. Everybody will start from his or her own angle. (Interruptions) Shall we go by a community or a religion? (Interruptions) You conduct inquiry in general. (Interruptions)

ֳ֯ן : ,

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: If you go specifically, then...(Interruptions)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: So, you don't want the list to be given by the Minister. Why are you shouting? Don't you want the Minister to give the list? Are you afraid? Let him give the list. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: We will talk about the Gujarat riots. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please don't disturb, Mr. Narayanasamy. (Interruptions) Mr. Narayanasamy, don't disturb. (Interruptions) You please take your seat. That's enough. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Only in the Western Railway suburbs it took place. Not only in the Economy Class, but all were killed in the First Class. The newspapers have given this news. I am prepared to read because the newspaper is with me.

ֳ֯ן : כ, כ

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Why did it happen in Western Railway? Because, it is said by the newspapers that most of the people from Gujarat travel in the First Class. I tried to read the list. And, it is absolutely true, otherwise let the Minister deny that those people who had died were mostly from Gujarat, and it is nothing but taking a revenge of what happened in Gujarat. (Interruptions) Is it not an attempt to take revenge? (Contd. by 2b -- VP)


SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.): Sir, then, there are some people behind this. This has not happened all of a sudden. Sir, this happened only because some people wanted to take revenge against those people who did, according to them, something in Gujarat. During election time I remember, pamphlets were distributed. And in the pamphlets it was mentioned: "Nothing else excepting what happened in Gujarat". It is just to defeat the candidates of Shiv Sena and BJP. This is what happened. Sir, when are we going to be really united? My worry is not only about these incidents. But are we going to fight amongst ourselves? Are we going to take the country backwards? Sir, these types of people who want to unnecessarily instigate the people, I am sure, are the people who are more dangerous terrorists than the terrorist activity that took place.

There are two more suggestions and I would conclude my speech. My first suggestion to the hon. Minister is, be honest and stick to the truth. Try to find out the truth. If these are the people involved, as I said, they may belong to the Hindu religion or to the Muslim religion, I am not concerned, you must take action against them.

Sir, POTA was cancelled. This Government thought that POTA is not necessary. All right. In Maharashtra, the MOCA is there. Before that, TADA was there. These were all the Acts; whether POTA, MOCA or TADA, these were the Acts against terrorists. I do not know why they were cancelled and why they were not kept. Sir, I would say, if they are not sufficient enough, if they are not adequate to punish the culprits, make stronger laws than these. Are you prepared to do it? My demand is, you make a stronger law which would book the terrorists and the terrorists would also be scared. Anybody not supporting either a good action or anybody not supporting a bullet action against them is not a good thing. You want to preach them; you want to tell them. I heard somebody saying also that because there are no jobs, there are terrorists...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please finish now.

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, I am finishing in one or two minutes. Somebody said this yesterday; I was shocked. And nobody objected to him; that was further shocking to me. Because there is nothing to eat, you can kill the people; innocent people! Somebody said, "Because there are no jobs, people do it." Therefore, it is very necessary to find out who are these people. You have to find out who these people are, and try to punish them. This is my first suggestion that you must be honest. I know, you come from the province of Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj, and the Defence Minister comes from the province of Shri Subhash Chandra Bose and the Home Minister is also from the province of Shivaji Maharaj. What action they used to take? (Interruptions) Sir, I am not going into it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please finish.

ָ֮ ״ : ִ ׻֋ , ,

֮ : ֲ ֻ , ׿־֕ ָ֕ , ... (־֮֬) ׿־֕ ָ֕ ׮־ , כÙ .... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן : , כ .... (־֮֬)

ָ֮ ״ : , ӟ .... (־֮֬)

֮ : ™ , ָ ִֻ֮ , ׻֋ ָ, ׿־֕ ״ ߅

ߴ֟ Ӥ ָ : ִֻ֮ ׻֋ ... (־֮֬)

֮ : ִֻ֮ ֱֻ , ׻ ״֡ ִֻ֮ ׿־֕ ָ֕ Ͽ ֵ, ׻֋ ־ֲ פօ

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ֟ ׸

SHRI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the first thing I have told the hon. Minister is to see to it that an honest decision is taken and the people, to whichever religion they belong to, if they are culprits, kill them. Take proper action against them.

My second request would be, your appeasement policy has been responsible for the growth of terrorists in our country. This appeasement policy of the Government must be stopped forthwith and do not think of votes. The remedy from my point of view is, do not think of votes, whether votes come to you, whether you become a Home Minister or somebody else becomes a Home Minister, the Government remains or not, is not important. If you go to that extent, only then you will succeed. Please remember that when Shri C.D. Deshmukh was the Finance Minister, and when Maharashtra was accused, he resigned from the Lok Sabha. He did not think of his post. This is the action which is required. And one person, who is prepared to sacrifice everything, can save the lives of thousands of people of this country. Sir, I have finished my speech. Thank you. (Ends).

(Continued by 2C)


ֳ֯ן :  ״. ߅ . ֮ ߅

ָ : , ֮֕ן ֯ , ָ ֯ ֻ

ֳ֯ן : ׻֋, ׻֋ ֯ ך

. ֮ : , ֯ ̸ ֱ-ֱ

ָ : ֮ ֛ ֤ ֣ ׿־ָ֕ י ֿ׾ָ ,

. ֮ (ָ Ϥ) : ֳ֯ן , ֯ ֳָ ֮֯ ׾ֵ ָ ֓ ׻֋ ָ פօ ׾ֵ Ӿֿ߻

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ׻֋ ִֵ פ , ֮֕ ׻֋

. ֮ : ֻܵ ֮֕ ֛, ָ , ָ֕ ֋

׾ֵ Ӿֿ߻ , ™ ֕ ־ֻ ֮֟օ ׮ ׸ ׾ָָ֓ ָ , ו , ߕ օ ׾ָָ֓ ֕ ׮ֵ ָ ׾ ָ ָ֟ ֟ ׸ ֲֻ֟ ֯ ׻֋ ֵ֕ ֟֓ߟ , ֵ֕ ֯ ִָ֤ , ֟, ֻ ϵ ֮ ןï֨ ֮ ׻֋ ֲ֕

( ֳ֯ן ߚ߮ )

׸ ֱ ָ-ָ sporadic פ, פ, פօ ׾֓׸

ָ ׯ֔ ֤֟ , כ ָ ָ ׻֋ ֯ ߵ ׾ֵ ֮ ֵ ֲ ֟ ָ ֛ ֤֟ ß֮ ָ ϓ׻֟ ֟ , ִ٣֟ ֟ , ֵ֜ ֟ , ֤ ֟ ִ ß֮ ? ֟׻ ߑ׻ ֳ֯ן , ֟׻ 꿵 פ ï™ ֵ, ו פ ß֮ ׾֤ ӡ ֤֟ ֲ ֻ֟ , ֲ ߸ ֻ ֲ ֟, to their satisfaction, ׻֋ ߸ ֻ ֤֟ , þֵ þָ ׻ֵօ ֟׻ ߑ׻ ߕ ֟ ֟ ß֮ ײכָ, .. ׻ ß ׻, ו foreword וֵ-- ׻ օ ִ ׸ ֲֻ֟ ֻ֮ ֮ פ ֮ ֵ , ֮ ֟ ֲָ ֋ ֯ ִ֮ ָ ָ ֲ֕ ֋ ָ ָ ֟ ֵ, ß ֵ, ױ ׻֋ ֟օ ױ ֯ ֮ ֮ ֯ ꅠ ֮ ׸ ׻ ָ ׾֤ ן ָ , perceived enemy , ו ֮ ֮ ֮֟ , פ , ֮ ֲ֕ ֯ ִ֮, ֟ ִ֮ ֮ , ֱ conventional warfare ׻֋ , ֮ ףֵָ , ָָ֟ ףֵָ ֛և , ֱ ׻֋ , ׻ ׳ߵ ׻֋ ֮ ֲֻ֟ ׌ֵָ ׸ ׻֋ ָ ß֮ ßֻ ֲ ִ֟ ו ָ ß֮ ָ ֤֟ ϓ׻֟ , ִ Ӥ ו ָ ß֮ ׳ߵ á-á ֮ ֻ ׸ ֮֮ ִָ֓ ֋ , ו ָ ֓ , ָ ֟, ׻ ™ ...

(2 ָ ֿ:)


0 ֮ (֟) : פ ֲ ֯ ׌ֵָ ׸ʹ ֟ ֛ ָ֟ ߕ ߅ ֻ ѓ : כ ֵ ָ ֤״ֵ ӟ ֣ 7-8 ֵֻ ָ ֤֤ ™ ׳ߵ ףֵָ ֮ ָ ֮ , ו֮֟ ָ֮ ׸ ׮ֵ ׻֋ ִ ׸ʹ ׻֋ ױ ֻ ֟ ֛ ֱ ֮֮ ׻֋ ߔ ֮ ֛օ

1930 ָ ָ ֟ , ״Ε Ù , ß֮ ֲ ϵ ß֮ ָ ûִ ߅ ֲ ßֻ օ ָ ֜ 1940 ֵ ׌ , ו ִ - ״ֻ֟ ӛ ״ֿ֮ ׌օ ִ ָ ß֮ ֮֮ , ֱ ָ ß֮ , ׻ -׿ֵ ֮֮ ֤ ׿ֵ ָ ß֮ ָ , ָ ׿ֵ כ׮֕ʹ ׸ׯϕ ֻ, ָߵ֟ ן׮׬֟ ֻ, ֟ , כ ִ֯ ֋օ ß ׻ ָ ֟ , ו֮ օ ָ ß֮ þָ ׻ֵ , ױ ֯ ִ ׸ʹ ִֵ , ִֵ ꅠ ָ -׿ֵ ֮֮ ן ™ , ָߵ֟ ן׮׬֟ , ָ ׻֋, ָ ׻֋ ֲ ֛ ָ֟

ֳ֯ן , ָ ֯ ֕ וֲֻ ӛ׿ֵ ֱ ß֮ , ӡ , ֮֟ӡ , ꌵ׸ʹ , ־ ӣ ֳִ־ , þ֟ӡ כ׿ֵָ , ֵ֯׻ ֻ־֮ , þ֟ӡ Ծ־ã  ״ֻ ֮֯ , ֮ ֵ֙ ו֮֟ ֤֮ , ָ ֯ וֲֻ ӛ׿ֵ ֲ ֱ ß֮ Ӆ ֱ ß֮ , ׮ֵ ֲ ִ ָ ִ ׮ֵ ִ , ß֮ ꅠ כ׮֕ʹ , , ָߵ֟ ָ ״ֻ֟ ӛ ״ֿ֮ ׌ ֲֻ֟ ָߵ֟ ִ֯ פ ֋, ethos ִ֯ פ ֋, Ʈ ׸ ִ֯ פ ֋ ß֮ ָ, ִ֟ , , ֤֟ ָ ו ָ , , ִ֟ ׿ֵ ֮֮ ָ , ױ ֲ ֻ , և , ӡ , Ϭ֮ ӡ ֤ ֟ ׸ʹ ֲֻ֟ ? ׸ʹ ֮ ֋? ׻֋ - ֛? ָ ֵ ֛ ׸ʹ , ׸ʹ ֛ ׸ʹ ֱ ָ ָ þָ ֛օ ָ ִ ֵ ֮֮ ֺ ָ ׸ʹ ָ־ ׸ ™ ׻֋ , ô֟ ™ ׻֋ , ָָֆ ֮֟ֆ ™ ׻֋ , ױ ־ֻ ֻ ֮֕ן ֙ ֙, ָָ ָָ , ׻ ָ ֣ ־ֻ , ™ ֮

֯ ָ ֙֋ , ֟ ™ ֻ ? ֻ ָ ֤ ָ , ֻ ָ ׾֮֬ ֳ ָ ߸ , ֻ ָ 㴲և , ָ ֮֕ן ֮֕֬ ָ , ٣ ֮֕֬ ָ , ֻ , ָ ׮ , ָ, ִָ ꬵ , ָ ן (2E/000 ָ ֿ:)