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MCM-PB/5A/7.00

0 ֮ (֟) : , ֯ ִִ ד֡ ָ ֟ ֮֓֯ Ӥ ד֡ ֻ ָ ֮ ߴ ִ֮ þָ 녠 ֓ ֮ ֛ Ӿֿ߻ ֯ ָ ֟ ׮֋ ֟ ꅠ -ָ ָ֮ ֛ ֲ י ֵ , ֓ ӑ֙ ֙ ֟, ָ ֻֻ ߅ ָ֮ , ֓ , ֻֻ ֮֋ ָ֮ ֣ ֵ ו ֮ ֮ ֻ ׻ֵ, ָ߯ ֣ ִև ׮ֻ ׻ֵօ

׸ ֟ ֟ ִ ױ ߾֮ ֓ ? Ӥ ֯ , ָ ֮ ־ ֮ Ӿֿ߻ ֮ Ӥ ֯ ֻ֮֟ ֓ ꅠ ֚ ß, ֓ ָ, ֮ ֟ , Ӥ , ִ ׾־ ׌ Ϥ֮ ֯ ִ ֟ , ִ ֵօ ִִ ֮֟ ֤ ָ , פ ֤ օ ָ ֯ ߸ ֜, ִ ֤ ã֮ ֻ ׻֋ ׻ ִֻ֮ ׻֋ , ױ ׻֋ ߠ ןš ָ ֯ ֮ ֛ , ָ օ ֲ ֯ ֤ߠ ֜ ֲ ֟ ֻօ ֟ ׌ ִ ׻ ָ ߸ ֮ ֟ ߸ ֕ ו ֤ ֙ ֯ ֲ ֮ ֻ ןֻ״ֻ ֻ ֣ ֤ ֱ ִ֕ ׮֟ ִֵ ֓þ ׾ֹ ֮ ׳־׌ ֮ á ָ օ á ָ ֻ á , ׻ ֵԤֆ ֻ áֵ ׻֋ ׮ֵ״֟ ׮ִֵ ׾ָ , ־֮ ߅ ֲ ֮ ָ ֟ þָ ִ և, ֲ ִִ ָ ߟָ ֟ , ֬ ֮ á ָ ׻֋ ֓þ ׾ָ ֮ ָ߸ ϤԮ ֯, ֬ ֮֬ ԟ, ֬ן ־ ֤ ֮ ֯ ߓ ָ ָ , ߓ ָ ־ָ ו ָ ִ֟ 녠 ֮ ן , ָߵ ן ......(־֮֬)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Mr. Joshi, I don't want to disturb you. You are making very effective points. ...(Interruptions)... But I feel you have made your points. ...(Interruptions)... Sushmaji has also to speak. ...(Interruptions)... I do not know whether we can really discuss all this because clarifications have been made. You have made effective points. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Bagrodia is also waiting for his turn. ...(Interruptions)... You have made very effective points, Mr. Joshi, and Sushmaji also would like to speak. So, I request you to kindly conclude. ...(Interruptions)...

DR. BARUN MUKHERJEE: Sir, the listed Business should be taken up. ...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: This is also part of the Business. ...(Interruptions)...

0 ֮ : ֲֻ֟ ֯ ָ ד ֟ ֟ ֯ ֙ ִֵ ָ , ֯ ָ , ֯ ָ , ֯ ִ֕ ә , ֯ ִ֕ ֮ ? ִ ֚ ׿ ״ן ֲ ָ ִ֮ ֲ ֻ , ײֻ ֻ֟ ™ߵ ׿ Ӭ֮ ׸֤ י ִ ׻ -և פ, 20 פִָ, 2005, ß ֮ ׻և , ֮֯ և ß ֟ , ׻ֵ , ֯ ֯ ֋ ָֻ ֮, ו֮ ָߵ ן, ן ִ֕ "", "", "" ֟ , ֮֯ ׾֮֫ ֮ ׻ֵ, ֮ ׻ֵ ꅠ ׾־֤ï֤ ׾ֵ ßָ ָ ָ ׾־֤ , ֤ ׾־֤

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Mr. Joshi, I request you to kindly conclude. You have made all your points. ...(Interruptions)...

0 ֮ : פ ֤ ִ ֵ ָ ֟ ׮ֻ ֋ ו֮ ָ ֲֿ ϵ , כ ֋ ֕ ױ ֮ ֯ ֚ ß ָ ֻ֟ ß , ֻ֟ ָ , ־Ԯֿ ߅

(5B ָ ֿ:)

GS-SKC/5B/7.05

0 ֮ (֟) : ֯ ׾ִ֮ ׮־ , ֯ ֮ ־ ׌ֵ ֵ ִ ֮֕ן ֋, ֮ ׌֟ ֮֕ן ֟ ֮֕ן ָ ָ ׾ָ֓ ™ ׾ָ֓ ׾ ֤ , ָ ֟ ֯ ֯ ß ד֟ ӿ֮ , ָ ֳ֟, ן, ָָ ׾µ ֣ ֵ녠 (ִ֯)

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ (֬ Ϥ) : ֳ֬ , ײֻ ִ , ֻ -߮ ֟ ߅ ֵ֤ ֟ , ָ ӡ ִ ֟ , ֟ ֜ , ִִ ֟ Ӳ֨ , ׻֋ ֮ ֟ ׻֋ ֛

ֳ֬ , ו פ ׾ ֤ ־ֻ ֵ , ֟ ֯ ֤ ֤ ã֟ ֵ , ֤ ֲ ֟ ӡ ֲ־ , ֮ ϟ , ֺ ӡ ֮ ִָ֮֬ ָ ֜ ӓ ֕ ӟָ֕ ֺ ִָ֮֬ ָ ֕ ֮־ ֮֬ ׾ ӡ ָ ֵօ ֓ ָ օ ֟ ָ ׻ , פ ֵ, ֜ פօ ӡ , ֯ ֲ ו֮ ׾ֵ ָ ֮ ֯עֵ և , ֯עֵ ֯ þֵ ֜ ֕ ֟ ָ ָ ֜ ֵ֕ ֮֯ ֲ Ӥ ֜ , ֯ þֵ ֟օ ו֮֟ ֯ ֮֟ , ֕ ֟ ָ ֯ ָ ֲ ߕ ֜ , ֯ ֜, ָ ָ ֯ օ פ ָ ֯עֵ ֜ ֜ ָ ӡ ֜ פօ ֮֯ ߸ִ ׾֟ ִִ֮ ֟ , , ׾֟ - ߸ִ ֮֯ ׾֟ ׳֮Ӥ ӣ ֜ פօ ֟ ֤ ִ ״ֻ , ׾֟ - ׻ և , - ִ׮֟ , ֤ ִ֮ Ͽ ã֟ ׾֟ ִ֮ ײֻ ? ׾֟ ݵӟ ׾֟ , וִ ׾ ,

"ֲ ֻ ֟ ֤ؕ ߔ ָ , ִִ֮ כ ֻ ֮ ?"

֯ ׾֟  הֵ , ϳ , ָ , ׾ , ϟ֯ ָ , , ׾֟ ָ ֮֮ ֻ , - ׾֟ ָ ֮֟ ׾֟  ׾ֵ ß ׾֟ ָ ߕ ׻֋ ֮ , ֟ ׾ֵ ß ֮ ׻֋ ֮ ֯ ֛-֛ ִ ׾֟ ִ׮֟ Ӭ ә כ, - ֮ ִ ֮ ֟ , ו ֮ ׾ ֟ ֤ Ӥ ֮  ִ֕ , ו֮ ϓ׻֟ ׮ֵ 0 ִ ӛָ , ֛ ֮ 㯟 , ִ׮֟ ֤õ ס ׸֤ ׾֟, ߸ִ -

" ָ ֛ ֛ , ׮ֵ ,

ײ֟ ָ ָ ֟

ֻ , ִ ִ ָ ײ ,

֛ ָ ןֵ-ןֵ , (֮-֮ ׻ֵ )

ָ֮ ָ "

׮ֵ ӯϤֵ ׻֋ ׻ ׻֋ ֮ ֯ ӛ ֮ ִ "" , ָ פ ֋, ִ֮֕ Ͼע ߮ Ӭ ֟ - ִ֮֕ Ͼע ߮ Ӭօ (5 ָ )

HK/5c/7.10

ֳ֬ ( פ ס־) : ֵ ִ֯ ֟ ֵ , ׾ֵ..(־֮֬)..

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ֳ֬ ..(־֮֬)..

֚ : ָ, ӳ߸ ׾ֵ ..(־֮֬)..

ֵӟ ֻ ָ : ӳ߸ ׾ֵ ..(־֮֬)..

ֵָ : ûִ, և ׾֪֣ ֜? ..(־֮֬)..

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ֳ֯ן , ֮־ ֮֬ ׾ ӡ ..(־֮֬)...

DR. BARUN MUKHERJEE: There is Listed Business. ..(Interruptions).. Why is it published? ..(Interruptions)..

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ֳ֬ ..(־֮֬)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Sushmaji, just one minute. I will address the issue. ..(Interruptions).. The issue is very sensitive. There could be two things -- we all are experienced people -- either the heat would be generated and the proceedings of the House could be adjourned. I am trying to give everybody a chance so that systematically we discuss things and then go to the next business, and that is the purpose. I think, they are just concluding. If you can bear with that for another maybe..(Interruptions)..

DR. BARUN MUKHERJEE: My humble question is, when the listed business is there ..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): I will answer that humble question. This is also a part of the business, which was. ..(Interruptions)..

ֵָ : ֯ ָָ ה..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֬ : , ߕօ I am handling it...(Interruptions).. Let me finish. ..(Interruptions).. The clarification by the hon. Minister was permitted by the hon. Chairman. So, that is also a part of the business. Since he also mentioned and referred to some names, I am also duty bound to give them a chance. Earlier I said that you will get your chance and after that if I don't give them a chance, heat will be generated. So, this is the answer of your question. This is a part of the business. Sushmaji please carry on and kindly conclude.

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ֳ֬ , ו֮֟ ә֮ , ֮ ִ֯ , ָ ־֮֬ , ֲօ , ֯ ן ֟ ֳָ ֌ ֻ߮֟ ָ ӡ ִ֮֬ ָ ָ ֟, ָ , ִִ ߕ , ֮ Ӥ ֙ , ד֟ ֵ ֟ ד֟ ֵ ׻֮ ֻ ֛ ִ׮֟ ׻֋ ֟ ֯ ִ֮ ֮ ֛ ֱ ֟ ֮־ ֮֬ ׾ ӡ ֣ ӡ , ֌ֻ־֤ ִõ פ ָ ֲ ־ֻ Ͽ ֌ֻ־֤ ָ ֟ ו "ָ֟ ֿ" ֟ , "ֲ ָ֟" ׾֟ - ߾֮ ׸ֵ ׻ , 1967 ֿ ֻ ֌ֻ־֤ ֮֮ ׾֦ ׾֟ ֵ Ϥ֮ օ ֮֯ "ָ֧ " ִ , ׾֟ ֙ ֯ ֯ ֜ ֮֯ ־ֲ ׻ֵ, ׾֟ ֙ ֲ օ ָ ߮ և :

֟ ֲ ָ֟ ,

׻ ָ ֲ ָ֟ ,

ָ֧ ֲ ָ֟ ߅

 

ֲ ָ ֣ ײֻ ֟ ֲ , ֲ ֲ ֟և, ֯ ׾֮֬ ֟ ֕֟ ? ô , ֌ֻ־֤ Ӥ֮ ֯ ׾֮֬ Ӥ , Ӿ׮ Ӥ֮ ӡ ֮֮ ֛ ֯ 11 ֟ ֌ֻ־֤ ֮֮ ֮ ֤Ծ֤ ֮֮ ֌ֻ־֤ ֮֮ ׌ ׾֟ ֯ Ӥ ׻ , " ָ֧ ֲ ָ֟ ߅" , ָ ֟ ߅ Ӥ ֜, Ӥ ֜, ֯ ֟ ־ֲ ӿ ֓Ӥ ֮ , ׻֋ , ִָ - ֲ ßֻ օ ִֵ ִ֕ ֲ ϓ׻֟ ֮֯ Ù׸ ֌ ߓ ׻ פ Ӿ׮ ױ ֕ , ׾֮֬ , "ָ֮" ֲ ׻֮ ֕֟ ֻ ֟ ׻ , ֲ - ָ ׸Ù ֟ ׻ ׻ ֯ ׻֋ ֯ ֟ ֮֯ ױ ֟ , ִ Ӥ - Ӥ ֙օ Ӥ ֙ 0 ֜ - ׻֟ "ָ֮" ָ֮ Ù ִ֮ ӑ֙ ׮ֻ ֟ , ֲ ָ ֟ ֓ ӑ֙ ֙ ֟ (5 ָ ֿ:)

MP/5D/7.15

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ (֟) : ֯ ֜ ? ו֮֟ ߕ , ִ , ֮ , ֓ "" ֲ פ֮ "ןֵ-ןֵ ָ֮ ָ ", , ֮ ֲִ, ׾ ֮ ԟ pervert ׻ ֲ , ן׾߮ ׻ ֲ , ָߵ ן ֟ ֻ ֲ ָ ֯ ֜, ֯ ֟, ׻֋ ֜ , ִ֮־ִ פ ֯ ָ ׮ִӡ ֵ ֯ ָ և ߅ þִ ֮֮֬ ֮֯ ִ ߟԮ , ִ ߅ ׻֋ Ӥ ׾ ֺ ֮֕ן ו֮֟ ֋, ֯ ֮ ִ ִ, ֯ ֲ ֜ ֤ ֯ ֤֮ ָ ֲ֕ ֺ օ ִ ִ, , ֲ ֯ ָ , ָ ֯ ֮ ׮־-ã֮ ָ ִ ִ ߟԮ ߅ ֟ Ԯ ֲ ̟֕ , "ִ-ִ כ ֻ ֮ ָ ̤ؕ ׻֋ , ִ " ׻֋ ֯ ױ Ԯ , ֕ ֤ߵ ״ן ֮ ו֋, ֤ , ֕ ֳ , ֮ - ֕ ֳ ״ן ֮ ו֋ ֳ ו֋, ו֋, ִ֯ӣ ו֋, ִ֕־֤ ו֋, ָ... ו֋, ָ ו֋, ֮ ܵ ֤ ו֋, ָ ִִ ֲ ִ ו֋, ֯ ֋ ֲ ִ֮֬ օ ֯ ֜ ָ ׻ פ , ִ֮֬ , ֯ ָ֬ ֵ , ֮־֤ (ִ֯)

֮ ֻ ӛ : ֳ֬ , ״֮֙ ו֋ ָ ִ

ֳ֬ ( פ ס־) : ֛פ , ӓ ֕ ӟָ֕ ֮ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)...

֮ ֻ ӛ : ָ, ״֮֙ ו֋ ֛פ , ֯ ׾ֵ ָ ? , ו֋

ӟ ֛פ (֕ã֮) : ״֮֙ ָ ֮ , ֙ -֙ ־ֻ ִ , ָ ӡ ׾ָ֓ ִ և ֟ , ָ ־֮ֆ ֣ ....(־֮֬)...

ߴ֟ ׾֯־ (ֻ֓ Ϥ) : , ׾֟֋ , ָ ִ֕ ִֵ ׻ և , satire , ֮ ֟ ֵ֜ ׾֟ֆ ָ , ׻ָ֙ ֲ ....(־֮֬)... ָ ֵ֜ , ֮ ֟ , ָ ֋ (ִ֯)

ӟ ֛פ : ӡ ִ ו̤ ֟ ֮֋ ֮֋, , ָ ָ ׾ָ֓ ֲ next time ։ , ָ ׾ָ֓ ֟֋Ӆ (ִ֯)

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ֲ ִ֮֬ ָ, ״ן ֮־և

֮ ֻ ӛ (ײָ) : , ׾ֵ ™ , ™ ׸ , ™ ן ™ ׾µ ָߵ ֮֟ ֙, , ... ־ֻ , ָ... ־ֻ ָ ֌Ծ֤ ׮Ù ֙ Ӭ ָ֕ , ִ , -߮ ֟ օ ..(־֮֬)...

ֳ֬ ( פ ס־) : ״֮֙ ֟ ו֋

֮ ֻ ӛ : ֮֮ߵ ׿ ӡ ֮֟ , ֲ ֬ Ϥ ܵ ӡ , ֲ ֮֟ - ֮-֮ ֮֕ן ԯ ֮֟ ׸ ֮֟ ָ ִו ֵ ֛ ֻ ֵ օ ִ֟ ֮-֮ , ןš  ׾ֵ ֵ , ™ߵ þ֟ӡ֟ ִ Ӥ֮ ָ֋ ֟ Ӭ ו , ֻ ָ , ֟ ָ , ֮ ןֻ, ֲ ָ , ן ™֤, ™֤ ו ָ þֵ ֮֮ߵ ӡ , ֻ օ

(5 /ֲ ָ ֿ:)

NB/GSP/5E/7.20

֮ ֻ ӛ (֟) : "֤֟ ™֤" ָ ֻֈ߮ "֤֟" , ָ þ֟ӡ֟ ֮ ֮ ֻ פ ß֮ ֻֈ߮ "֤֟" , ߸ ֤֕ ׻֋ ֛ , þ֟ӡ֟ ֮ ֮֟ , ױ ָ ϟ֯ ? "֤֟ ™֤" , ו֮ ׮ֻ ׿ , ֻֈ߮ ןֻ judge ָ ?

ָ ֟ ׾ Ӥ ܵ , ִ׵ ׸ãן , ן ִו-٣ ָ֮ , ִ ־ã , ־ã ֮ ֺ ™ߵ ׸ ׮ִ ן , ֚ ״ֻ ֮ ֻ ׸ãן ֲ ׸֌ , ֮ ֯ ֟ ׻֋ ִ ֟ ָߵ ֮֟ ֙ ־ֻ ֟ ֮֟ , . ִ ֮ ו ָ ִֻ , ™ ִֻ ָߵ ֮ӑ ןָ , ֮ ֕ ָߵ ֮֟ ֙, ֤ ֟ , ִֻ ֌Ծ֤ ׮Ù ֙ ׮Ù ֙ ןָ , ָ֋ ֯օ

ֳ֬ , ™ ִֻ , ™ ׸ ִֻ , ™ Ӥ ִֻ ׮ֻ ׸ ֮֮ ִֻ ֮ؓ֟, ™ߵ ָ֬ ָ ֬׸ , ִ֣Ԯ օ ׻֋ ִ ׻֋ ֤ߵ ״ן ֮֮ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ֲ ӡ , ֮ ־ã , ִו ׸֟Ԯ , ִו ֵ ן ׻ ֋, ִ . , . Ը ֣, ֯ ִ , ֟ ֯ ׾ֿ ִ֋ ׿ ִֻ ֯ ׸ ָ, ֮֕ן ׸ ָ ֮ ֻ ߜ ֋ ֯ 韾 ãן և , ו ֮ ׿ , ׻ -ן ׮ִ ׻֋ ֮ ֻ ׿ , ׻֋ ִ , ָ ֤ߵ ״ן , ֲ ֣ ֮ ֟ ִ֯ ֮־֤ (ִ֯)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): I think, this particular issue, which was very sensitive, was handled very maturely by all the hon. Members of Parliament. I am thankful to them. Mr. Chatterjee, you want to join in this. (Interruptions)

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ֳ֬ , ֯ ׻֋ ֮־֤ ִ ߚ߮ ׬ָ ֛ ״ , ׻֋ ֯ ֮־֤

ֵָ : ָ, NCERT ׬ָ ֤ ׌֟ ֱֻ .... (־֮֬)

ֳ֬ : ֵ, , ֵ, ߕ ך .... (־֮֬)

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (WEST BENGAL): Sir, when this issue was earlier pointed out here, all the parties wanted that the Minister should make a statement because the issues referred to are very serious in nature. Sir, as a student of history, you know that during the Independence Movement, the British Imperialists were referring to many of the freedom fighters as conspirators, as traitors. We know that. British called them likewise. Even the founder of the Communist Movement, Shri Muzaffar Ahmed, was treated like that by the British Imperialists, and, also, Subhash Chandra Bose and many others. If that term continues even today, that is very serious in nature. We could not follow the Minister because he has not circulated the statement. We are waiting for this discussion on Subhash Chandra Bose...(Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: We will have that.

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: Now we had a long discussion. Our opinion is that this should be thoroughly investigated and enquired by the experts, and, I think, the hon. Minister will definitely agree to it. One point is that we should always keep in mind that the issue is being taught in which class. Continued by SK/5F

SK-AKG/7.25/5f

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (CONTD.): That is also a very serious point which should be noted. The Minister is here, and, I think, it should be investigated further on the basis of the statement and reference made here. This is my submission. Thank you, Sir. (Ends)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI): Mr. Minister, do you want to add anything?

߸ י (ָ Ϥ) : ָ, ָ

ֳ֬ : ֵօ

Ԯ : ָ, ו֋

߸ י : ֳ֬ , ӛ , ָ: ֟ ן׸ օ (ִ֯)

֮־ ֮֬ ׾ ӡ ( Ԯ ) : ֳ֬ , ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ֮-֮ ֟ , ִ֮ ֮ ™ ϳ־ Ӥ ֟ ׻֋ , ֲ Ӥ ֤֟ ָ ןֻ , ׾֮ , ׾ׯ֮ ֻ ָ ™ߵ ן ֤֮ , ֤֮, ֲ ֜ , ִֵ ֟ ... (־֮֬) ...

ֳ֬ : ֯ ̸ ו֋

Ԯ : Ͼ֤ ׾ָָ֓ ϟ ... (־֮֬) ... ™֤ ... (־֮֬) ... þ֟ӡ֟ ִ ™֤ ׸ ... (־֮֬) ... Ӥ ֟ ׻֋ ָ Ͽ , ו֮ ָ ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ ֛ ٴ ָ , þָ ָ ֮ ׸֮ ֮ ֮ ׸֮ ֮ , ִ֕ ֮ ָ ׸֮ ֮ ׮ִ ßָ , ױ ֮ ֯ ִ֕ ֵ օ ׻֋ ֯ ֮ ׮־ ֚ ß ׮ٴ֟ ׻֋ ֯ ֲ ׾ָ֓ , ִ ׮׿֟ ֮ ֋х ... (־֮֬) ... ׻֋ ֳ֬ , ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ֳָ , ׾ָ֓ ֌

.. ׻ֵ : ׸֮ ֵ, ֯ ? ֯ ֜

ֳ֬ ( פ ס־) : ֻ߮֟ ָ כ֮  ֯ ׾֮֟ ... (־֮֬) ... ׻ֵ ... (־֮֬) ... , ֮ ... (־֮֬) ...

.. ׻ֵ : ׸֮ ֮ ֵ ... (־֮֬) ...

Ԯ : ֯ ӿ ֮֓ ֮ ֮ ו֋ ... (־֮֬) ...

.. ׻ֵ : ֮ ֯ ֮ ... (־֮֬) ... ֮֯ ... (־֮֬) ...

ֳ֬ : ׻ֵ , ״֮֙ ӡ , ִ ֟ , ֻ ִ ֤ ־ֿ ׾ֵ ָ ֙ ױ ֮֟ , ֓ ֟ , ׻֋ ָ׿֯ '' ٙױ ֯ ã ֟ ־ֻ ֵ ֵ ... (־֮֬) ...

Ԯ : ߴ֮, օ

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Now, we will have Mr. Santosh Bagrodia. ... (Interruptions).. ָ ׾ָ֓ , ... (־֮֬) ... ... (־֮֬) ... ֤ ... (־֮֬) ... ֤ ... (־֮֬) ... (5 ָ ָ)

-SK/YSR-HMS/7.30/5G

׾ ֤ : ״ן ֮־և ӡ ? ...(־֮֬)... ֯ ״ן ו֋

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ֳ֬ ( פ ס־): , Please, start now. (Interruptions) ֛פ , ֯ ֻ ו֋ ӟ ֛פ ߕ כ ֻ ו֋

 

HALF-AN-HOUR DISCUSSION ON POINTS ARISING OUT OF ANSWERS GIVEN IN RAJYA SABHA ON 10TH AUGUST, 2006 TO STARRED QUESTIONS NO.242 AND 249 REGARDING 'DISCRIMINATION AGAINST INDIANS IN BRITISH JAILS' AND 'NEGOTIATIONS FOR RELEASE OF INDIANS IN BRITISH JAILS.'

 

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (RAJASTHAN): Sir, finally, I am able to raise this discussion on discrimination against Indians in different jails all over the world. Sir, as per the information provided by the Government, currently, Indian prisoners are interned in 42 jails all over the world. Sir, in Europe and America, Indian prisoners are detained for the charges relating to immigration laws or serious crimes like murder or narco trade. In Germany, the local authorities do not provide information about murder and crime.

Now, in different countries, the Ambassadors or the Embassies or the High Commission offices, they do not bother even about ordinary citizens who are visitors from India to those countries. They do not bother about the NRIs. If they do not bother about them, how will they bother about these prisoners? This is the lowest priority. I would request the hon. Minister to please look into this aspect. They are also human beings. I am not saying that they will change the law. Different countries have different laws. Let them follow their laws. Those who are criminals, they should be punished. I have nothing against them. My only submission is that, at least, we should have statistics. We have computers now. One cannot say that he does not know this information or that information. Maybe he does not have the information today, but the information should be collected and this should be kept all the time. How many prisoners are there in different jails; what kind of crimes have they committed; for how long are they under-trials; do they need any kind of help, so that they may not remain under-trial for life? These are the things. How many women are there? Children may have been also in jails for different crimes, whether small or big. We should have these statistics. They are our brothers; they are our sisters. Maybe under different circumstances, they committed some crimes. So, we should have these statistics. This is what I wanted to know.

In fact, in the U.S.A., 158 Indians are languishing in the New York Jail. Most of them are booked for violation of Immigration Laws, remaining are booked for crimes. How many of these are under-trials and for how long? All these information may please be made available.

(Contd. by VKK/5H)

-YSR/VKK/5h/7.35

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (CONTD.): Sir, I have come to know that in US, Indians arrested in the aftermath of 9/11 terrorist attacks are languishing in Wackenhut Detention Center without being charged and many without access even to lawyers. I think there is some responsibility of our Government. They are on hunger strike. An Indian immigrant, Mr. Makhan Singh, is one of the prisoners there. He has said in an interview that no one is eating. He has also said that he has a wife and two children who are American citizens. He has been in detention centre for six months. The Wackenhut prison, the report says, is a converted warehouse building with no windows in the middle of a warehouse district in Springfield Gardens, Queens. He said, "We need people to know about our situation." Further, he says, "We must be heard and we will starve if we have to." Many of the Wackenhut prisoners have been deprived of freedom for years even though no terrorism-related or other criminal charges have been brought against any one of them. These people should be taken care of. There is some kind of responsibility of our Government also.

Similarly, Sir, in Gulf region, in UAE, there are 1073 prisoners, in Muscat, there are 72, in Saudi Arabia, there are 1444. They are unskilled labourers who had gone there. They are semi-skilled. They don't have proper education also. They don't know for what kind of offences they have been jailed. So, it should be the responsibility of our nation to look into these aspects.

Sir, coming to Pakistan, there are 371 fishermen, 205 civilians and 64 POWs languishing in Pakistan. Eight civilians have been languishing for 25 years, ten for the last 20 years, 25 for the last 15 years and 27 for more than five years in Pakistani jails.

(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN, SHRI KALRAJ MISHRA, in the Chair)

Sir, these are the people who are there for fifteen or twenty years. They say, 64 POWs! POWs should have been released. What is the use of our having a good relation with Pakistan if our POWs are still there? The Government has to be a little more sensitive about it. The Government owes a responsibility; we owe a responsibility for the release in the interest of the families of these soldiers who are POWs. Sir, have we sought the help of Red Cross under international humanitarian laws and Geneva Conventions on POWs? If yes, when and what was the outcome? Has the Government shared the information on POWs given by released prisoners, with Red Cross? These are the kind of questions which come to our mind. These are all for humanitarian consideration. On this question, the hon. Minister has mentioned last time, when it was discussed, that we don't have proper information. We have referred to those countries. Now, we have our embassies there. We have a High Commission. Do we just send letters and wait for their replies? Why not our officers, local officers, visit and get all the information? I am sure if efforts are made, at least, the information can be collected. Saying that information is not available, is not acceptable.

Sir, similarly, Bangladesh has got 871 Indians who are languishing in Bangladeshi jails. We would like to know their background and the crime for which they have been arrested and for how long. What has been the response of Bangladesh authorities to the requests of Indian Mission regarding these prisoners? Is it true that India-Bangladesh are planning to sign Extradition Treaty? Sir, in nearby countries, even in Burma, we have about 26 Indian prisoners; in Malaysia, 460 Indian prisoners. Now, they might have committed some crimes, but all of them are definitely not criminals. I am sure some of them are innocent also. We owe a responsibility to them. They have gone there to earn their living. They have been arrested for reasons known to them. At least, we should provide some help because they are far away from India. They are all poor people. Their relations cannot handle it. In that case, Government cannot shirk their responsibility. (Contd. by MKS/5j)

-VKK/MKS/KLG/7.40/5J

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (CONTD.): In case of Pakistan, Sir, these fishermen who are very poor people go to the sea for fishing. And sometimes, they enter into the Pakistani waters innocently. They are arrested! What are we doing to help these poor people who have been arrested for not much of their fault?

Finally, Sir, what has happened to Sarabjeet? It is such a sensitive issue. When we talk about good relations, a sensitive issue like Sarabjeet's should be handled. And we know that his sister has recently tried to immolate herself also. It appears to me also that Sarabjeet is not a criminal. He did not go there for spying. But there can be a difference of opinion. I think that if the Government takes up the matter with the right authority, something can be done about it. With this, Sir, I shall request the Government of India to provide urgent legal and consular services to the Indian interns. Our Missions should be able to provide them the requisite legal and consular aids under the various international covenants on immigrant prisoners. Thank you very much, Sir. (Ends)

ֳ֬ ( ָ֕ ״) : ֮֮ߵ ӡ ߅

ֻ : ָ, ֮

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: Sir, his name was there. He should be allowed to speak. ...(Interruptions)...

ֳ֬ : ֮֮ߵ ӡ ߅ ֤õ ֮ ֻ .. (־֮֬)

SHRI E. AHAMMED: Yes, Sir. I am here. ...(Interruptions)...

ֳ֬: ֮֮ߵ ӡ ָ ־ֲ ֤ ֯ , ױ ־ֲ , ד֟ ִ

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ֳ֬ : ־ֲ ױ ֯ , ־ֲ .. (־֮֬) .. , ׻֋ ӡ , ֤ ֯ ־ֲ ו֋

SHRI TARINI KANTA ROY (WEST BENGAL): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, two questions, Q.No.242 and Q.No.249, were put on 10th August. One question was concerning Indians who are lodged in British jails, and the answer given was: "239 Indians lodged in British jails have been imprisoned in crimes like violence against persons, violation of traffic rules and drug offences." On such types of crimes, there was another question also, No.249. The answer given was: "U.K. Government has been approached to furnish details of crimes of Indians as early as possible. But no reaction of the U.K. Government was available on that." Sir, the question was: "Has our Government approached the British Government?" In this regard, I would like to tell the Members, because all of you know this, one Peter Bleach, British national, who was arrested in the Purulia arms drop incident was accorded a pardon in 1995. And this British national, Peter Bleach, was released in July. Five Latvian pilots were sentenced to life imprisonment. Along with Bleach, they were pardoned by the then President, * . Peter Bleach himself told that he had expressed his gratitude to the British Government for relentlessly pursuing his case with the Indian Government. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, names should not be mentioned. He can only say 'the former President'. But his name should not be there. ...(Interruptions)...

ֳ֬ ( ָ֕ ״) : , ֯ ִ ߬ Ͽ , ֤ օ

SHRI TARINI KANTA ROY: All right. The then President pardoned this fellow, Peter Bleach, and five Latvian pilots were released.

(Contd. by TMV/5K)

-MKS-TMV-AKA/5K/7.45

SHRI TARINI KANTA ROY (CONTD.): Sir, this was a serious case. On December 17, 1995, several boxes containing arms and ammunition were dropped from Antonov-26, that is, An-26, in Bansgarh village of Purlia District in West Bengal. There was a serious conspiracy. The conspiracy was against the Left Front Government in West Bengal. They were conspiring to kill the Left Front activists.

ֳ֬: ׸ ӟ , ֵ ߬ Ͽ

----------------------

*Not recorded.

SHRI TARINI KANTA ROY: This was the incident. If criminals like Peter Bleach, a British national, could be released, why doesn't our Government pursue the issue of releasing Indian prisoners, whose crimes are not so serious, with the British Government? I must say that their crimes are not of a serious nature like anti-national. There is a reference to other countries. I don't want to go into that. The cases of Indians who are in jails in other countries should be looked into by our Government. This is my appeal to the Government. Thank you.

(Ends)

ֻ (֜) : ֮֮ߵ ֳ֬ , 10 ָ Ͽ , ָ ֬ ә ֓ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ֟ ָ֮ ײי 239 ָߵ ֕ ֋ , ֮ ׾ֹ - ָ֬ ִֵ ֋ ֣ ו ָ ֮־ߵ ־ָ ָ , ָ ָ ָָ ָ֮ ? ֮֮ߵ ֳ֬ , ֯ ִ֬ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ֮ ֟ ֮ ײי ֤ ֟ ָ-ָ ֵ ׾֤ פ ׮ֻ ֮ ׮ֻ ֮ ֟ Ϭ֮ ӡ ֻ օ ֟ ӳ߸ ߅ ӳ߸ ֤, ׾֯ ֤ , ־ ָ ֕ ֵ ֮ ֤ ו ָ ֮֟֋ ֕ ָߵ פ , ֮֮ߵ ӡ ֟ ָ֮ , ֮֯ ׾ֹ ָֻ֟ ָ ֑֮ ָ בָ ֳ֬ , ֯ ֮ ֟ ֮ , Ͽ ֻ ײי , ׮ֵ ܵ ָ ֯ 6730 ָߵ ׮ֵ ׾׳֮ ֕ Ӥ ֛ -֟ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ꅠ , ֮֮ߵ ӡ ֟ ֮֮ ו֮ ִ, ִֵ ־ , 50 , ָߵ Ӥ , ָ 700-800 ܵ , 900 ܵ , 500 ܵ ָ ֤֕ 60 ߟ ֮ ָߵ , ׾ֹ - ָ ֋ ֋ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ֟ ֮֮ ײי 239 Ӥ , Ӥ ? ִ ָ֮ ֯ ֤ , ֣ ֮־ߵ ־ָ ֮־ߵ ־ָ ָ , ָ ֮ (ִ֯) ('5l/rg' ָ )

RG/7.50/5L

SHRI B.S. GNANADESIKAN (TAMIL NADU): Sir, the hon. Member, Shri Bagrodia has given very important statistics. I want to point out only two things to the hon. Minister. The number of Indian citizens, languishing in Indian jails, is increasing. We are aware that if any offence is committed, they are bound by the laws of those countries. We have no dispute on that. But the problem is that they are denied any legal aid. Recently, in connection with one such incident, I wrote a letter to the hon. Minister, and he was kind enough to forward it to an Embassy of a friendly country in UAE. One person from Tamil Nadu was arrested there as two beer bottles were found in his room. We do not know whether he got them or not. The police came, and he was sentenced with five years imprisonment and 10,000 whippings were ordered. To my letter, the Embassy gave a reply that the judicial system in the country is such that it is not transparent. No legal aid was given, and the accused was not aware as to for what offence he had been charged. He was not aware of the system of trial, and he was punished. And, an appeal has been filed. Even a Tamil interpreter was not arranged for him. Now, the Embassy has written to me that they would take up the matter with the authorities there. My point of submission to the hon. Minister is that our Embassies must be sensitised so that the human values of Indian citizens, languishing in these jails, are taken seriously. Mere hosting of parties for visiting dignitaries is not enough; we should take up this matter seriously with them. The human rights issue is involved. We must take it to the International Court of Justice, if necessary, and see to it that justice is done. If an offence is committed, let them be punished according to the law of their country. But these persons are entitled to have a legal aid, and it is the duty of the Indian Government to protect the Indian citizens; I say this of the fishermen too. But one thing is alarming, as Shri Bagrodia mentioned. We are talking about the Embassy in Pakistan. Sixty-four Prisoners of War are languishing in Pakistani jails. I want the hon. Minister to throw light on this aspect as well, so that we can be assured that the Government is taking initiative to see to it that our citizens are protected. Sir, several persons from this country go to foreign countries for earning some money, but they end up languishing in jails there and their families are suffering on the Indian soil. (Ends)

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SHRI E. AHAMMED): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I am very much grateful to the hon. Member who has raised this discussion, which has given me an opportunity to respond and allay some of the misgivings and information which, I feel, is not wholly correct. But it is a very important matter. The Government is very much conscious of the plight of our Indians, whether they are inside the prisons or outside, and wherever there is an opportunity for the Government to help them through a system and to get them released, no stone is unturned so far as this matter is concerned. I would just like to give some facts, which I hope, would give some satisfaction, though not fully, and also give some information to the hon. Members of this House. The number of Indian prisoners is on the decrease. I am speaking on the basis of the information available with the Government. The dignitaries of the Indian Embassies are periodically visiting these jails, and whatever counselling is to be provided to our prisoners, they are doing. There are approximately 25 million persons of Indian origin staying in 199 countries, out of which 10 million are purportedly Indian passport holders. A majority of them are concentrated in the Gulf region, the Middle East, Europe, U.S., Canada and Australia. According to the latest information available, 5,811 Indians are currently lodged in various foreign jails in 48 countries for involvement in various crimes. The number of Indian prisoners has gone down from 6,656 in May, 2006, to 5,811 at present. Similarly, the number of Indian prisoners in Britain has come down from 259 in December, 2005 to 239 in August, 2006. (Continued by 5M)

TDB/5M/7.55

SHRI E. AHAMMED (CONTD.): And, there is no Indian prisoner in 151 countries. And, as I have mentioned, they have been arrested, and they are also undergoing imprisonment for various crimes, murder, abduction, smuggling, robbery, forgery, theft, illegal entry, sexual abuse, rape, violation of traffic rules, drug trafficking, human trafficking, etc., etc. Before I go to the Indian High Commission Report, I would like to respond to the points raised by my esteemed colleague, Bagrodiaji. He mentioned about Pakistan. He has mentioned about the Pakistani prisons. As far as the PoWs are concerned, we always ask Pakistan that there are PoWs, and also give them their numbers and everything. Every time, Pakistan is also denying it. Sometime back, there was a proposal to send their relatives, but somehow, it did not work. This is the fact.

Sir, India secured the release of 1171 Indian fishermen from Pakistan in 2005. In 2006, we have secured the release of 93 Indian fishermen. The Indian High Commission in Pakistan got Consular access to 905 prisoners, including fishermen in 2005, and 505 prisoners, including fishermen in 2006 also have been given Consular access. And, as part of a composite dialogue, both the Pakistan Maritime Agency and the Indian Coast Guard have come to an understanding that whenever the fishermen cross each other's territorial waters, they will first take them into custody. After given access to the Mission to ascertain their nationality, they will be released. This is the process which is going on. I don't want to give any definite answer about Sarbajit Singh, at this point of time, since I don't have the latest information with me.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: But, you can assure that you will try.

SHRI E. AHAMMED: I will have to. There is always an assurance from the Minister whenever Members raise such an important issue.

At the same time, Sir, as I have already mentioned, the Indian Missions are doing their very best to provide the Consular service to all the prisoners. And, coming back to British jails about which my learned colleague and esteemed colleague, Shri Voraji has mentioned, according to the information furnished by the Indian High Commission in London, the number, as I mentioned, is 239, but it is reported that there are 5.7 lakhs persons of Indian origin living in Britain. Out of which about one lakh are Indian passport holders. But, taking into account the number of Asian prisoners there -- there are many other countries also, as per the report we have received -- 172 prisoners from Bangladesh, 156 from Sri Lanka, and 444 Pakistanis. Out of 259 Indian prisoners as on 31.12.2005, nine were females. I am giving this information because last time, when I was replying to this question, I was asked about it. We are not aware of any Indian being kept in open jails. And the number of Indian prisoners vis-a-vis other nationalities of the Indian subcontinent in British jails is not much considering the large size of the Indian community living in England. However, all the time, we have been taking up issues with the authorities of the concerned countries. So far as British jails are concerned, for the alleged discrimination against Indians in foreign jails also, the Indian High Commission has given us the report that nothing so far has come to their notice about the discrimination against Indian prisoners in Britain. (Contd. by kgg/5n)

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