The House reassembled after lunch at two of the clock,



MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we take up further consideration of the Central Silk Board (Amendment) Bill, 2005. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI K. NATWAR SINGH: Sir, will you permit me to speak?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: See, the matter is under examination. It will be intimated when to be raised. ...(Interruptions)... Now, we take up further consideration of the Central Silk Board (Amendment) Bill, 2005. Does any Member from the BJP want to speak on this Bill?

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I have to speak on the Central Silk Board (Amendment) Bill, 2005. ...(Interruptions)...

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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, Shri Narayanasamy to speak on the Central Silk Board (Amendment) Bill, 2005. ...(Interruptions)...

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SHRI RAVULA CHANDRA SEKAR REDDY: Sir, at least, he should be given an opportunity to speak. ...(Interruptions)

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SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: He has agreed to that. ...(Interruptions)... Where is he? ...(Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : opportunity ֋ ...(־֮֬)... The House is adjourned till 2.30 p.m.


The House then adjourned at

two minutes past two of the clock.


The House re-assembled at thirty-minutes past two of the clock,





THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Now we shall take up Bills for introduction. Shrimati Hema Malini, not present. Shri Kalraj Mishra, not present.



SHRI SHANTARAM LAXMAN NAIK (GOA): Sir, I move for leave to introduce a Bill further to amend the Representation of the People Act, 1951.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.


SHRI SHANTARAM LAXMAN NAIK: Sir, I introduce the Bill.



SHRI SHANTARAM LAXMAN NAIK (GOA): Sir, I move for leave to introduce a Bill further to amend the Registration Act, 1908.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

SHRI SHANTARAM LAXMAN NAIK: Sir, I introduce the Bill.




SHRI SHANTARAM LAXMAN NAIK (GOA): Sir, I move for leave to introduce a Bill to provide for compulsory quoting of source law by publishing notifications, orders, circulars, tenders, etc. for bringing in transparency in government functioning and matter connected therewith or incidental thereto.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.


SHRI SHANTARAM LAXMAN NAIK: Sir, I introduce the Bill. (Ends)



SHRI B.J. PANDA (ORISSA): Sir, I move for leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the compulsory identification of illegal immigrants to the country from the neighbouring countries and those foreign nationals who are overstaying in the country or have gone missing after the expiry of their visas and for their deportation to their countries of origin by setting up a National Commission for that purpose and for matters connected therewith and incidental thereto.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

SHRI B.J. PANDA: Sir, I introduce the Bill.



SHRI B.J. PANDA (ORISSA): Sir, I move for leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the promotion of two-child norm to control population explosion by the State so as to make it commensurate with its economic and social development and with the ecological balance through incentives and for matters connected therewith and incidental thereto.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

SHRI B.J. PANDA: Sir, I introduce the Bill. (Ends)




SHRI B.J. PANDA (ORISSA): Sir, I move for leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the relief, compensation and rehabilitation measures through employment and other means for the persons affected by Naxalite or Maoist terrorism in various parts of the country particularly in Orissa, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Andhra Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, etc. and for matters connected therewith and incidental thereto.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

SHRI B.J. PANDA: Sir, I introduce the Bill. (Ends)


THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Now we shall take up the consideration of the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2004 (Amendment of article 341 and 342). When the House adjourned on 28th July, Shri Santosh Bagrodia had not concluded while participating in the discussion. Now, Shri Bagrodia.



SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (RAJASTHAN): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak. Sir, it was not that, pardon me for saying this, I had not concluded but I had hardly started.


SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: I do not know what wrong I did on that day. I made a very simple statement and my good friend, Mr. Naryanasamy -- Mr. Jothi also who is not here -- said the world over, "people are not fighting for reservation". (Contd by 1U)


SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (CONTD.): It is only in India that people are fighting for reservation and then he also said 'I take strong exception to it because unless and until people fight for their right in India they will not get it'. Sir, I do not know what he has taken exception to. I have not used the word 'reservation' in my opening remarks at all. Nowhere. Whatever English language I understand and I know, he knows English better than me but I do not know which word I have used which he thought he should take exception to. I only said, this is the only country in the world -- I would like to underline, this is the only country in the world -- where people fight with each other to get themselves declared as backward. I do not know what made him object to it. That is entirely his choice but I feel if he is more attentive, he will do justice like Ahluwaliaji who made a good speech yesterday; he would also do justice.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: (Interruptions) I will reply to all your points.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, he behaves like a Minister. I have not told him to reply. Let him say whatever he wants to say. But I just wanted to make a point.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): He is as good as a Minister.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Words should not be put in other Members' mouth. India has a very old culture. It is thousands of years old. It is not a new culture like American Continent etc., which was probably discovered by Columbus or somebody. Indians are the natural citizens of the country. They are the natural people of the country. These were the people who were the original people of the country and these are the people who are Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes or people who are still not fully developed. We are talking about these natural people who are living here. Most of the people, as you know by history, have come from different parts of the world. But these people never came from outside. They might have gone outside, which I will express later on, but they are born here thousands and thousands of years ago. It is about these kinds of people we are talking here, Sir. I compliment the hon. Member because this particular Bill proposes to remove the complex distance between the SC lists in various States. Sir, if a community faces deprivation in one state it ought to suffer similar deprivation in other States, unless proved otherwise. Now, this is a very peculiar situation. In one State, one community is declared backward or SC or ST. In other States, some other communities are declared. But the Indian Union is one. I cannot understand. One community in one particular State is backward and in the other States, it is different. You will be amazed to know, once I said, 'I want to become SC'. Sir, in Bihar, Baniyas are also backward. Nowhere else in the country, only in Bihar it is backward. This is a very peculiar situation. Obviously, other places...

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SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, there is a conflict of interest. The hon. Members, who belong to the same community, are talking about that community.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, I don't know what kind of conflict of interest is there. Shri Narayanasamy has to, again, teach me what is conflict of interest and what is not. I don't know to which community he belongs. And, I don't know if he has ever spoken about that community. But, how many people of the same community speak for their own community. You go and see the record. Sir, if an intelligent and very old colleague of mine says like this, I can only feel sorry for him. I have no objection. He can speak whatever he likes. But, he will only cut a sorry figure in the entire House if he speaks on illogical things. I have no problem.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KUREAN): Please come to your point.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, I was saying that Banias need not be in the OBC List or the Backward Class List. I am not trying to propagate that at all. I am only trying to tell you that this is the anomaly and that is why this Bill is required. The immediate objective of the Bill is to remove a complicated discrepancy between the State List of Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh and Assam. Now, labourers, mostly belonged to the marginalized sections of the undivided Bihar and Madhya Pradesh, were taken to Assam by the British tea planters some 150 years ago. After Independence, while these communities were included in the SC List of their respective States of origin, they have denied the SC status in Assam where they have been working in tea gardens for generations now. Sir, you will be amazed to know that before Independence, even in Assam, these communities were declared as SCs. It was only after Independence, they were not declared as SCs. It is, definitely, a very peculiar situation. And, their father says, 'I am SC.' Their sisters say, 'I am SC.' Their brothers, who stayed in Jharkhand or Bihar or Madhya Pradesh say, 'We are SCs.' And they are declared as SCs. But, since they have gone to Assam, they are not SCs! Obviously, one can understand that this kind of discrimination, definitely, affects the sentiments and morals within the same family. It is because of this facility one family member can go ahead in life, others don't. It is not correct. There should be equality, at least, among their own brothers. Sir, there are many Commissions like the Dhewar Commission, the Pataskar Commission, the Chanda Commission and the Lokur Commission. As you know, most of the Governments -- now and earlier -- appoint Commission-after-Commission. So many Commissions were appointed. They visited Assam. They examined the lifestyle of these migrants and all the Commissions have found that the plight of these people has not been changed. They also gave recommendations. But, still nothing has happened. At this point, I would like to mention that a delegation of Ministers and MLAs from Assam, led by Mr. Prithvi Maji, Speaker, Vidhan Sabha, Assam, met the then Union Minister of Social Justice and Empowerment, Dr. Satyanarayana Jatiya. The delegation talked about 60-lakh of Oran, Munda, Santal, Karia, Tasa, etc., communities, commonly known as tea tribes in Assam, presented a Memorandum to the Minister requesting for inclusion of these communities in the ST category and introduction of a Bill in Parliament to this effect. The Memorandum further stated that their counterparts in the States of Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Jharkhand, Tripura are all recognised as STs. (CONTD. BY PK "1X")


SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (CONTD.): They contended that there are about 75 of these communities, basically, belonging to the Scheduled Tribes, but these tribes have been deprived of the benefits and privileges of this status, as they are not yet recognised by the Government as tribes. Sir, as per the law, the State Government should pass it within its own Assembly. The present Government in the Assam Assembly have recently adopted a Resolution urging upon the Central Government for granting the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes status to the deserving community of tea garden labourers in Assam. That means that formality has also been completed by the Assam Government. Sir, the State Government has also recommended to the Central Government, not only the legislature but also the executive.

In view of this, I strongly recommend that when so many steps have already been taken, there is no reason why they should be deprived of this benefit in the future. So, I am sure hon. Minister that after this Bill is passed, this anomaly will be over.

Now, this is a Private Members' Bill. It has happened in the past, I think, once or twice, when a Private Members' Bill was converted into an official Bill. I request the hon. Minister to either convert it into an official Bill, or, give some kind of an assurance that within this time limit a new Bill from the Government will come, so that this anomaly is over once and for all. It is unfortunate that even after 50 years, communities have to go on strike for the special compensation under SC status to seek opportunities for development. This is unfortunate, but this is a fact of life. I fully support the view that as long as they don't come at par with other communities-- years are not important, the results are important -- they should not be deprived of this benefit. Originally, reservation was started for ten years. It went on for ten years. Then, after every ten years, it was extended. I think, if we have to increase this period to another fifty years, it doesn't matter. The important thing is how to increase the pace of the real efforts by the Government and other communities so that these communities can come at par with other communities. Laws only are not going to solve the problem. This mindset has to come in every citizen of the country. For the information of my friend, Shri Narayanasamy,........(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Don't provoke him.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: He has become cold now, Sir. He won't be provoked...(Interruptions)..Sir, there are individuals who are seeking opportunities on the basis of forged and fake caste certificates. Of course, that has to be stopped. Because, if somebody is taking an advantage on fake certificates, obviously, to that extent, somebody else from that community is being deprived. It is also unfortunate to see that indentured labourers are taken to distant lands like Fiji, or, Caribbean. Sir, as you know, at one time, a little above 50 per cent of poplulation in Fiji was from India. And, in fact, we had an Indian who was the Prime Minister of that country, Shri Mahendra Chaudhary. We are all proud of him. People like him went there, because their ancestors had gone their as labourers. (Contd. by 1Y/USY)


SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (CONTD.): But with their hard work, with their dedicated efforts these people established themselves. I am not going into history what happened with them locally. But they are suffering. He came here and met some of us. He did tell us that even now how hard it is for them to remain in those countries and struggle for their survival. The same thing is happening in Carribbean. They have contributed in their own country and they have brought laurels for our country also. It is for this reason that our Government celebrates days like Pravasi Divas to honour these people who have gone from our country and established themselves there. We seek their expertise also and ask them to be our Ambassadors in those countries to have better relations between India and those countries. That's how with the opening of the economy in our country these people can contribute a lot. As you know, Sir, you come from a State where the economy of the State has gone very high. One of the reasons for this is the contribution from their daughters and sons who have gone abroad from that State; they are contributing in the welfare of their State. This goes in a big way. On the other hand, the brethren of those indentured labourers who remained in India, but were uprooted from their places to work for Gaura sites and plantations, remained a wretched lot. I am coming back to this. They are the same brothers; somebody went there, somebody went to Assam, somebody went to other places in the country.

Sir, I may tell you, Punjab is known as the granary of India. They supply a bulk of food for the country. But let me tell you if these migrant workers don't go there, or, had not gone there, even the farming in Punjab and Haryana would have been a big problem. These are the labourers who are working very hard in those States also. That's how the country has finally become self-sufficient in the foodgrains. Even in Delhi, for example, the migrant construction labourers from the neighbouring State, to which I belong, that is, Rajasthan come. At this stage, I would like to draw the attention of the House it is a wrong myth that anybody coming from Rajasthan is multi-millionaire. It is not true. In fact, the percentage of the poor people in Rajasthan is much more than most of the States in the country. Those people, who had gone outside Rajasthan, have become much better off. But they are no more in Rajasthan. So, the people who are left over are not better off. And, if you consider the percentage of those people it is much more; and, in comparison to other developed States, like, Maharashtra, Gujarat, Punjab, they are much poorer than the people of other States. So, these construction labourers remain at the verge of life without any prospect of a better life, nor any promise for their future generations. They have a very hostile futures. In such conditions of abject hopelessness that community is taking desperate recourse to the affirmative discrimination. These measures are not meant for the better off sections. These migrant labourers are the rightful beneficiaries of reservations meant for SCs or STs or, I will say, OBCs. I, therefore, call upon the Government to remove the typical and administrative glitches to enable migrant labourers to avail the benefits of the Government's positive discrimination. No effort can ameliorate the historical wrongs, but we cannot rewrite the history, but we can change the course of future. I know what has happened has happened. Just because it has happened, should we remain quiet? At least, we can do many things for the future of their children. We need to redouble our efforts. As I said, we have to increase the pace of development. We have to redouble our efforts to empower them to join the mainstream. However, positive discrimination should not lead to social tension. It should be based on broad social consensus. (Contd. by 1z -- USY)


SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (CONTD.): Sir, positive discrimination is not about only the job reservation. That is one side of the story, which has created social tensions. It is also about giving them share in economic empowerment. This morning only our able Minister, the Minister for Small Scale Industries and Agro & Rural Industries, was at his best in this House. And, I can tell you, under him, the people who are employed all over the country in the villages, who are the poorest of the poor are mostly from these countries -- whether they are artisans, or, they are having small, small, very tiny industries. And, even in Khadi production he knows more than me. He has more information available at his command. Even in Khadi production, the maximum number of people who are employed there in the country belong to SC/ST communities. They are the people who are still maintaining the tradition of the country. So,...(Time-bell)... we have to give them share in economic empowerment.

Sir, if I close, I think, you will have a problem. You know why? Because I am, probably, the last speaker and there is nobody to....(Interruptions)

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THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): No; no. It is not like that. There are seven more Members.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, I stand corrected. I was told that....(Interruptions) Sir, I am grateful to you for this information because my own Chief Whip gives me wrong information and, then, goes on correcting it, amending it. (Interruptions) Sir, I need your protection.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: If I gave you some information two weeks back, would you take it granted for today also? (Interruptions)

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, you protect me from my Chief Whip.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: But, at least, he has corrected it. (Interruptions)

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, I will finish it fast.

In this regard, the record of some States in delivering and disbursing Special Central Assistance, meant for SCs, has been very dismal. In fact, in several States, like, UP, Karnataka, West Bengal, Orissa, the number of beneficiaries of Special Central Assistance has already gone down during the period 2002-03 to 2005-06. The State Governments of certain States do not make matching contributions under the Scheme, thereby the Central finance allocated for the Scheme remains unutilised. In 2005-06, only 62 per cent of the finance, released by the Centre, could be used by the States. (Contd. by 2A -- PB)