PREVIOUS PAGE

NEXT PAGE

-KLS-SSS-AKA/2J/2.00

The House re-assembled after lunch at two of the clock,

MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair.

-----

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Jaswant Singh.

THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (SHRI JASWANT SINGH): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am grateful to you. You have been very patient. I cannot say that the Treasury Benches have been equally patient. But I will endeavour to, now, limit my intervention, Sir, what remains of it. There were principally three questions, if you read within the parameters of three -- the names, who, etc. And the second was, Sir, what did we in NDA do and the third was really the nuclear aspect. I understand that the nuclear is the larger question and the nuclear has also come up under a separate discussion. If I may be permitted to say -- I will conclude very shortly, Sir, I will finish within the time that you have allotted -- so far as nuclear is concerned, the central purpose of the United States of America in all this that I have submitted, in the documents that I have shared, in what I have said in the House, was, to somehow, anyhow restrain India from going down the path of attaining the position of a Nuclear Weapon State. Nuclear Weapon State or not is a technicality. But India is a nuclear weapon possessing country. And it is because of that all this effort was made by the United States of America. That was their aim, Sir. And, we addressed, as Government, as the NDA, this challenge. It was because I was asked, 'what did you do?' There was the fact that a piece of paper, a document, information was in my possession. Having assessed that and having realised that in the year 1997 it had already been made public, it had already been given to the then Prime Minister, it was already, therefore, in the Prime Minister's Office, because Prime Minister is a continuing function, then, in 1998, the single responsibility and challenge that we had, as the Government, was to defeat the purpose of that and all the effort that the United States was doing. There were two ways in which we could have done it. We could either have ordered a detailed, vindictive or an exploratory inquiry. The people concerned, Mr. Graham, was already out of the country. He is not an Indian citizen. Ambassador Harry Barnes was not living in India. What was clear was the direction in which those that were in the knowledge of this information, they were in the then Prime Minister's Office. They used that knowledge to somehow prevent India from conducting its nuclear test. Therefore, the first responsibility we had, as NDA Government, was to defeat the American purpose of restraining India. That was the first challenge. Everything else follows.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Allowing the spy to continue to work and share the nuclear secrets with the USA! That was the success of the NDA Government!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat.

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ָ, ֯ ׸ ֯ ן ֻ֮

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Sir, the second thing what we did is this. I will conclude within 20 minutes. The third really related to what Shri Shahid Siddiqui has said about the consequences of India's nuclear programme. (Contd. by NBR/2K

-SSS/NBR-SCH/2K/2.05.

SHRI JASWANT SINGH (CONTD.): One consequence was immediate that, in the year 1995 or 1997, the attainment by India of a nuclear capability, also weapons capability, could not be achieved. That is not even open to question. What caused it, amongst other factors, but, which, certainly caused, was that the vital information in this regard was reached to the USA, the State Department and the White House ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: By whom?

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I have said by whom. I will come back to it in a minute...(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: That is the question...(Interruptions)...That is the moot question ...(Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please let him say...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ: Please have some patience ...(Interruptions)...The hon. Leader of the Opposition says that he will come to it in a minute...(Interruptions)...Cannot you have patience to wait even for a minute?...(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Madam, we have been sitting patiently for two hours...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAVI SHANKAR PRASAD: So what?...(Interruptions)...

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Sir, I will be very brief on the nuclear aspect. From the USA, the pressure upon India was about the Test Ban, about subscription to the Fissile Material Treaty, about falling in line with the larger, global American aims on the question of nuclear weapons. That has relevance. That has a continuing relevance. And, it has a continuing relevance. Sir, let me cite just one or two examples. I would not go into all these in detail. In any event, there ought to be, and I am given to understand by Smt. Sushma Swaraj, who so ably and so assiduously helps me in the Parliamentary work and does much better than I could possibly do...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Then you make her the Leader of the Opposition...(Interruptions)...

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: She is welcome to take over from me if you feel that she will do a better job than me...(Interruptions)...Sir, I come to the nuclear aspect. Why I say this is, if you just examine the conduct of this Government so far as the whole approach to the nuclear policy is concerned on July 18, 2005, for example, it was ten years after that attempt. What is happening is this. The point I am making is, the USA, its approach, its intention and its purpose is fixed, constant, unchanged. They have not altered their views from what they were -- whether it is Democratic Government or whether it is Republican Government. Principally, it is to put a restraint on India's nuclear capability, a restraint on India's fissile material production to somehow restrain even the Missile Programme of India. It is because of that I cite just two or three cautionary notes. My able colleague, Mr. Yashwant Sinha, has done a great deal of work in this regard. Let me cite just two or three examples to illustrate what I am saying. On July 18, 2005, a benchmark was established with the USA that it would amend its laws to end embargo against the nuclear trade with India. The Bill that has recently been enacted or the purpose clarified by the House of Representatives says, 'to permit only restrictive and conditional trade with India.' No waiver granted for India from all the provisions of Section 129 of the USA Atomic Energy Act.

Another example is, Sir, the USA pledges full Civil Nuclear Energy Cooperation and trade with India. What, actually, happens? The Bill now prohibits export of Uranium enrichment and spent fuel reprocessing equipment and technology to India. I wish to state one more example of this, which is the principal one. The hon. Prime Minister then informed us, through a statement that 'India will acquire the same benefits and advantages as other leading countries with advanced nuclear technology, such as the USA.' (CONTD. BY USY "2L")

NBR-USY/MCM/2L/2.10

SHRI JASWANT SINGH (CONTD.): This was the statement, Sir. Violation is institutional discrimination against India. I have cited only 2 or 3. There has to be a separate discussion on this issue. I will conclude by saying that there were three parameters. Who is the person? I don't think it is very clear that those networks then in the know of what decision-making process is in the Prime Minister's Office, or, from amongst them there is a person. The note is very clear in what it is saying. There is explicit, and there is also the implicit. The problem with the present Government is demonstrated by how the hon. Prime Minister has chosen to reply to my concerns. If the obvious should be denied because there is no signature, it is not on a letterhead. ָ ֟ ָ ָ ֙ ֙ פ It is a clear enough sign and points to then Prime Minsiter's Office. It is clear enough for the Government to recognize who is responsible. If it does not want to act, it is up to them. Secondly, Sir,.....(Interruptions)

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Who is the mole? ...(Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : ך-ך.......(־֮֬) He will come to your point. (Interruptions) He will come to your point. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Will you yield for a minute? (Interruptions)

ֳ֯ן : ך-ך.......(־֮֬) Your point will be answered, this much I can tell you. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, my question has not been answered for the last two hours. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your point will be answered. This much I can tell you. (Interruptions) please take your seat. (Interruptions) Your point will be answered. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Since yesterday...(Interruptions)...today also he is not...(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat. (Interruptions) Let him finish. (Interruptions)

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I spoke that I am repeatedly being asked, "Who is responsible?" It is this attitude which is responsible. (Interruptions) There is the 'explicit' and there is the 'implicit'. What is explicit are the names to which I am....(Interruptions) I received a letter from the hon. Prime Minister saying, "What is explicit is without a signature?" I have said, what is explicit....(Interruptions) He said, "There is not under a letterhead." Even if after what is implicit and explicit, if after all the evidence and the evidence is the consequences of what happened because of all this what was planned to be a test by the 1995 Government could not be a test. Nothing more can explicitly state as to the consequences of this Government's attitude. Then, what did we do, Sir, I will share with you in very brief, in two sentences. In the NDA, the Atal Bihari Vajpayee's Government defeated the purpose of the United States of America to shackle India...(Interruptions)... and to deny it...(Interruptions) and to deny it...(Interruptions)...

0 ִ ӛָ : ָ-ָ ֟ .....(־֮֬) ־ֻ ־ֲ ו֋......(־֮֬)

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Who is the mole? ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY: You are killing the BJP. (Interruptions) You are creating suspicion. (Interruptions) You are finishing the BJP. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat. (Interruptions) Let him finish. (Interruptions)

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: We deny to the US its aim to shackle India's nuclear capability. (Interruptions) The third aspect...(Interruptions) Shri Shahid Siddiqui sahab wanted to know what were the nuclear conseuqneces. (Interruptions) The nuclear consequences are...(Interruptions)

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: We don't want to listen to anything else. It is all useless. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN; Please take your seat. (Interruptions)

(Followed by 2m -- GS)

VP-GS/2M/2/15

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: The third aspect, Sir, ...(Interruptions)..

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let him finish. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: The third aspect is this. ..(Interruptions).. He said that there are three parameters. ...(Interruptions).. Mr. Siddiqui wanted to know what are the nuclear consequences. In 1998 we obtained strategic autonomy and functioning.. ...(Interruptions).. Today, Sir, the Government is moving towards a bilateral test ban; not a legal multilateral, but a bilateral test ban. It is exactly the same that the Government is moving towards fissile material control and it is abandoning the nuclear autonomy that had been achieved by the Government of the NDA in 1998. ...(Interruptions).. In the equality; strategic equality, this is the consequence of what is happening ...(Interruptions)..

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let him finish. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I conclude, Sir. ...(Interruptions).. I will conclude. ...(Interruptions)..

AN HON. MEMBER: He is saying today that the Government is compromising. ...(Interruptions).. No, it is not the case. ...(Interruptions)..

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let him finish. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I appeal to the Treasury Benches ...(Interruptions).. I appeal to the Treasury Benches, in all seriousness...(Interruptions)... please, hon. Member, Thiru Narayanasamy, may please sit down. ...(Interruptions).. Sir, I conclude. ...(Interruptions).. I appeal to the Treasury Benches, indeed, I appeal to all Members in the House, the question of the strategic autonomy of India is a vital question. ...(Interruptions).. He has addressed that question. ...(Interruptions)..

ֵ ֺ : ֯ ֲ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ֲ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ֯ և ..(־֮֬).. ֯ և ..(־֮֬)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ָ, ׸ߙ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Please don't take it.......(Interruptions)..

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please go on. ...(Interruptions)..

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: There is one last concluding sentence, Sir. I have endeavoured to explain the pitfalls of what was done earlier, I appeal to the Government not to fall into the same pitfall again. And I conclude, Sir. I reflected quite a good deal as to what I should say. What I would like to share is a pad from Kabir. ...(Interruptions)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ָ, Ù և ֟ ..(־֮֬)..

ߴ֟ ִ þָ֕ : ָ, ̮ ו֋ ..(־֮֬)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ָ, Ù և ֟ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : , ߸ ָ ֵ ..(־֮֬).. ֯ և ֯ ״֮֙ և ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Before he goes to Kabir, Sir, let me put a question. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. CHAIRMAN: Wait for five minutes. ..(Interruptions).. Wait for five minutes. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I raised a very specific question. ..(Interruptions).. I said very specifically in my notice that you name the person, the mole, who is a spy and who leaked the vital information. ..(Interruptions)..

ֳ֯ן : ֯ և ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ֟ ו֋ ..(־֮֬)..֯ ׻ֵ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: In your speech also, you have said that. ..(Interruptions).. You kindly name the person. ..(Interruptions).. That was my notice. ..(Interruptions).. If you are able to say....(Interruptions).. Can you say that? ..(Interruptions)..

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let him finish. ..(Interruptions).. Let him finish. ..(Interruptions).. Let him finish. ..(Interruptions)..

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, MINISTRY OF COMMERCE & INDUSTRY (SHRI JAIRAM RAMESH): Sir, before he quotes Kabir, I want to say that all of us who have worked in Mr. Narasimha Rao's office, the then Prime Minister's office, have come under suspicion. ..(Interruptions).. I would like him to please clarify who is the mole. ..(Interruptions) ...because finger is pointed at us. ..(Interruptions).. (followed by PK/2N)

PK/SC/2N/2.20

SHRI JAIRAM RAMESH (CONTD.): Who is the mole?

߸ י : ִ ֮ ..(־֮֬).. Ͽ ? ..(־֮֬).. ִ ֮ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir,...(Interruptions)..

ֳ֯ן : ״֮֙ ׸..(־֮֬)..

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: After this statement, I have nothing more to say, and I do not wish to repeat what is already said.......(Interruptions)....

ֳ֯ן : ֮ ו֋..(־֮֬)..֮ ו֋..(־֮֬)..

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: As my concluding thought, which I borrow from Sant Kabir.

ߟ , ߟ ִ֮ , ߔ ֔־

߸ , ֮

...(־֮֬)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ו ־ֻ ־ֲ , ״ֻ ׸Ù ־ֻ ־ֲ ..(־֮֬)..

.ӟ ־ : ә ֤ ִֵ ֲԤ ..(־֮֬)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ָ ֕ ֳ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, yesterday, the hon. Leader of the Opposition said very clearly that he would disclose all the information sought by the hon. Members in this august House....(Interruptions)... But, he is not giving the information ....(Interruptions)..

߸ י : ִ ֟և..(־֮֬)..

0 ִ ӛָ : ֕ ֳ ..(־֮֬).. ִ ֮֟ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Mr. Chairman, Sir, the hon. Leader of the Opposition has not disclosed the name of the person who had been passing on the information to the United States of America...(Interruptions).. Let him say that he does not have the name of the person...(Interruptions).. Let him be very fair enough...(Interruptions)..If he does not have the name, let him say that he does not know...(Interruptions)...He goes to the media and..(Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ך ..(־֮֬)..ך, ך..(־֮֬).. ֋, ״֮֙ և..(־֮֬)..

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: He has taken the House for a ride....(Interruptions)..

ֳ֯ן : ׌ֵָ Կ ָ כ ֻ כ ևә ֯ ֋, ֯ ׻֋ ׾ֵ ׻֋ ֋ ׸Ù և ״׮Ù ־ֲ ..(־֮֬)..

߸ י : ִ ֮ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ֵ օ..(־֮֬)..

ӟ ֛פ : ִ ֮ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ֵ ? ..(־֮֬)..

ӟ ֛פ : ֯ ֟ ו֋..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ִ օ..(־֮֬)..׻֋, ֮ ו֋..(־֮֬).

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Let him say, Sir, that he does not know the name....(Interruptions)...

־֮ : ֳ֯ן ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : օ..(־֮֬)..

־֮ : , ֮ օ ־ֲ ָ ֮ , ֯ ׮־ օ ֮֯ , , օ ָ Ϭ֮ ӡ ֟ ߓ ֟, ־ֲ օ ֲ ֵ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ֵ օ..(־֮֬)..

.ӟ ־ : ә ֟ ..(־֮֬).

SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ: He will have the right to reply.

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ך ך..(־֮֬).. ״֮֙ և..(־֮֬)..

(Followed by 2O/PB)

PB/2O/2.25

THE PRIME MINISTER (DR. MANMOHAN SINGH): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I have listened with great interest to what Shri Jaswant Singhiji had to say. I regard Shri Jaswant Singhji as a man of honour and a decent man, and it is precisely because I hold him in such high esteem that I requested him. You are levying serious charges against the people in the PMO. Not only in the previous PMO. In one of your television interviews, you said, 'we were snooped, we are being snooped', implying that the present PMO also has a mole. And, it is in that context, I appeal to your sense of chivalry that if you have any evidence, you should name that person, and if you do not name that, I think, let the country draw its own conclusions. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: The matter is over. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Sir, ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Please listen to what the Leader of the Opposition has to say. ...(Interruptions)... (Ends)

ֳ֯ן : ך, ך .......(־֮֬)... We are now taking up the Cantonments Bill, 2003. ...(Interruptions)...

THE CANTONMENTS BILL, 2003

THE DEFENCE MINISTER (SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I beg to move

"That the Bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to the administration of cantonments with a view to impart greater democratisation, improvement of their financial base to make provisions for developmental activities, proper regulation, control and management of defence lands including extension of cantonment laws to such lands situated throughout the territory of India and for matters connected therewith or incidental thereto, be taken into consideration." ...(Interruptions)...

Sir, I would also move the amendments. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, the hon. Members are aware of ... ...(Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is the Cantonments Bill. He has spoken on it. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, it was decided that after the Prime Minister's observation, we will take up the normal Government business, and this Bill is the ...(Interruptions)... creation of Rajya Sabha, a very important Bill. Let the Bill be considered, and the hon. Members can discuss it. ...(Interruptions)... (Contd. by 2p/SKC)

2p/2.30/skc

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE (CONTD.): My respectful submission to the leaders would be, it was decided in your Chambers, Sir, that after the Leader of the Opposition completes his observations and after the hon. Prime Minister's observations, business would be taken up...(interruptions)...We need to conduct the business of the House. Is it fair that we come here everyday and waste time? I think there is no point in this...(interruptions)... Therefore, my most respectful submission would be that this is an important Bill ...(interruptions)... The Bill was referred to the parliamentary Standing Committee. The parliamentary Standing Committee made substantial recommendations and after recommendations were made, Government considered them. The hon. Members must know ...(interruptions)... my most respectful submission to you would be even in your ...(interruptions)... the Bill should be passed...(interruptions)... The Bill must be allowed to be passed...(interruptions)... because of the disruptions from hon. Members. Therefore, my most respectful submission is that it is a 1924 Bill; the first Cantonment Act was enacted in 1924. And today, we are living in 2006. It is absolutely necessary that this House should give...(interruptions)... Should I sit down, Sir?...(interruptions)... I would like the Bill to be taken up..(interruptions).... I can wait till the commotion is cleared, but let us take up the Bill today. This is not the way to function...(interruptions).... I commend that the debate be started ...(interruptions)... After that, I would like to respond to the debate...(interruptions)...

The question was proposed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The House is adjourned till 3.00 p.m.

The House then adjourned at

thirty-one minutes past two of the clock.

PREVIOUS PAGE

NEXT PAGE