PREVIOUS HOUR

AKG/4A/5.00

׾ֵ֕ ָ (֟) : ָ֟ ֤֟ ֱֵ ׻֋ ֮ ֮ ֵ֮ , ֮ ָָ ׮ֻ פօ ִ ׮ֻօ ֤ , ָ™ ֮ , ֮ ֮ ֵ֮ , ָָ ӕ ֟ ָ֟ ָָ ֮ ִ֟ ִ , ֯ ָ ֮ , ӕ ֮֮ߵ ӡ ָ֟ , ִ ֯ ֵ֟ ו֋ ֮ ֯ ӕ ָ֟ ָ ֣ ֲ֕ ו֋ ֮־֤ ֳָ(ִ֯)

֤ ֙ (ָ֟) : ֳ֯ן , ꛮ ïߓ , ә օ ־ֻ ָ ֙ ֤õ ָ֟ ֱֻ ן ֵ ֋ ן ײֻ ֵ ֋, structure 100 ֻ ֮ , 150 ֻ ֮ , 200 ֻ ֮ , ׮ , Õ֤ , , ָ ֵ ֋, ֱ ֛ ״֟ , ָ֟ ״֟ , ֻ ָ , ָ ֤ ִ߸ ֮

ֳ֯ן : ߟִָ ߅

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* Pp 574 Onwards will be issued as Supplement.

AKG/4A/5.00

SHORT DURATION DISCUSSION ON COMMUNAL VIOLENCE IN

VADODARA AND OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY -- (C0NTD.)

ߟִָ (׿ִ ֻ) : ֳ֯ן , ֕ ֓ , ִ߸ ־ֻ ָ ֯ - - ßָ ָ ָ ֋х ־ֻ ָ ו ָ ָ ָ ָ ֓ ֮ ׿ֿ , ִϤ׵ ֤־ ָ ָָ ֋ ֮֟ӡ ֟ӡ, ִ-׮ָ ֮֟ӡ ֟ӡ ָ ָ , Ӿ׮ , þã ָ ֲ֕ ֋, ־ֻ ֛ , ߔ š״ ָ֟ 2002 ־ ָ ֳ ֮֮ߵ , ֯ ֳ , ֕ օ ־ֻ ֻ֟ , ֳ ֮֟ ֻ֟ օ ֟ ׻֋ , ָ ֵ , ֯ , ֻ֟ օ ָ ֻ֟ , ָ ָ ָ ֟־ָ ָ֟ , ו ֲ ֟ ֺ ָ ֟ ֺ , ָ ֕ ֳ, ֤ ָ ִ߸ ֓ ָ ָ ֙֋ ? ָ, ו š״ ֟ , š״ ? ֯ ָ֟ ֕ ߴ ִ֮ ָ , ָ ָ ָ investigation ꅠ ֕ ߲߆և ָ ָ re-open investigation ꅠ ָ ֵ֤, , , ָ ֵ֤ ֯ , ֵֵֻ , ָ ֓ ָ ֵ ָ ִ֕ ֋ ֵ֤ ָ ָ ־ , ִ֕ ָ ָ-ϟָ ָ ָ perjury , riot victims ָ  ֕ ָ , ָ ׿ָ , ֵ ״ֻ , ׿ֵ֟ ֕ ־ֻ ָ ׸ , ӡ ָ , ־ֲ ״ֻ ׸ ָ ו֮֟ ֮֯ ָָ , ֵ֕ , ֵ֕֕ ׸ ֲ ׸ , ָ֟ և ߴ , ִ֕ פ ׸ ׮Ե , ײ ֌ ֮֮ ֛օ ֕ ֟ ԅ ֟ ֕ , š״ , ו ֕ ֛ , š״ ֯ ֺ ָ֟  ָָ ־ֻ ָ֟ ٣ ׾ , ־ֻ ٣ ׾ ֤ , ־ֻ ָ ִ-׮ָ ֮֟ӡ ֟ӡ , ֕֟ ֟ , ־ֻ ־ֻ ָ ֯ ֮ , ֙ ֙, ָ ֕ encroachment , ָ illegal structures , ֮

(4/֋֋ ָ ֿ:)

4B/HMS-PK/5.05

ߟִָ (֟) : , ִ և, ֳ֯ן ׸ ָ ֟֟ ֤ ߈߮ דֿ ִ ֵ , ؛ և , ָ ו 1912 1912 ־ ֟ ֛ ֵ֕ ־ ָ֕ ׸ , ׮ֻ֯ ׸ ֟ ן ֟֟ 385 ֻ ֮ ָ֕ ֣ , Ͽ֮ ֣ ׸ ֯ ִֵ ֛ , ֮ ֮ ָ ֨ ֣ , ֳ ִ ָ ֛ ֤ ֮, ֛ ָ ִ ִ ֛ ָ ׻ ֛ ָ ִ

֯ ׾ , ֳ ׾ ֛ ֮֮ ֳ֯ן , ֲ֤ ָ ׮ִ֕ , և ײػ ֮ , ֯ ֤ օ ײػ ֮֮ ֻ ֳ ֮ פ Ù֮ ֮֟ ֕ ֯ ֋ פ, ֈӛ ָ ֟ , ֕ ß ߓ ֛ פ ֯ ֲ ֮֟ ֲ֤ ֛ פ ֛ פ ֮ ֵ ߓ ִõ ֟֓ߟ ֵ ֵօ ֳ ֟֓ߟ ߔ ָָ , ן օ ֵ ו֋ פ ֮֓ ׻֋ ִ߮ ֵ߅ ָ כï ֵ, ֲ ֟ և ֓ ָ ֮ ׮ֻ ? ָ ֛ꤸ ״ָֿ ׸ ָ ֵֻ ֮ ָ ׾־֤ ֮ ֤ և ߓ ֻ ִֻ֮ ָ֟ Ӥ ָ ֻ? ָߵ ֮֟ ֙ ϴ ֮ ֛ , I am quoting from his quotations, "The demolition of this durgah is a very well-planned conspiracy. The Municipal Corporation authorities had promised us that it would not be demolished. We were working upon a compromise formula, but they backed out and simply razed it." , ָߵ ֮֟ ֙ ֲ֤ ׻֋ ֜ ָ ָ և , ֯ և ӟָ֕ ? ֟֓ߟ , ִֵ ׻ ָ ָ ֵԾ ӯϤ׵ ֛օ ױ ֲ ֛ ֤ ֵԾ ? ֤ ֵԾ ׻ ֮ ֤ ָ " և" "" ֵ ֚ ֕, ֙ ֮ , - ߬ ֵظ ֵظ ֟ ָ

, ֕ ߴ Ӥ և00 ӛ ָ ו֮ ָ ֤ ױ ֟ ָ ֛߅ ָ ָ , ֣ ֕ ֲָ ֲ֮ , ִֵ ֤ ֤õ , ֣ ֳ 1 ֓, 2002 ָ ֳָ֟ ֛ ֮ ֋ , ֻֻ ָ ֮ , ֟ ֯ ϴ֮ 00և0 ֵָ ֵ֮, ֤ և0 ֤ ֙ š״ ׻֋ ֤ Ӥ ֟ ӳ߸ ӳ߸ ֟ ָ 385 ֻ ֮ ָ , דֿ , ָ ו š״ ֟ ֵ, 2002 ֻ ָ֟ ֟ ֲ֤֤ ֛ ֮ ֵ߅ (4 /ߋ־ ָ ֿ:)

PSV-PB/4C/5.10

ߟִָ (֟) : ԙ דֻ ֲ ָ ִ ֕ ָ ִõ ֛ worship ֻ , ֤ 1993 ָ׿֯ ֵ֮, ו ֵ 1947 Ù , כÙ ꅠ ֛ ֮֮ , ָ ֳ ָ ־ ֯ ָ և 껵֮ ־ֻ և 껵֮ , ֲ 껵֮ , ӟָ֕ ו ֻ֕ ִ ֵ, ִϤ׵ ֛ ֟־ָ ײ֛ ָ օ š״ ֮ ֟ ָָ - ָ 65 instances , ָ 00և0 : Ù ֺ פ ׸ ֵ , ֕ ԅ ֲ ֲ ֮ ָ ߴ ָ֟ և Ù ־֮Դ ׸ ׸ ײ֮ ״ִ ָ ׸ãן ־ֲ֤ 00և0 ָ ׸ ָ ֟֋ ָ ֻ֟ ײ֛ ָ֟ ־ ֣ ֵօ ...(־֮֬)...

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, since Mr. Yechury has mentioned it repeatedly that the POTA Review Committee's ... ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Only second time, not repeatedly. This is only second time that I have mentioned it.

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: ... recommendations would be binding as far as State Government is concerned, the Police is concerned and the Prosecutor is concerned, could he please enlighten us as to which judgement is this? Sir, why I am saying this is because to the best of my knowledge, it is on the satisfaction of the Prosecutor in regard to the withdrawal of a case, and then on the approval of the court to that satisfaction, that the case stands withdrawn. And, the Gujarat High Court has clearly said, -- the Supreme Court has not disagreed with it -- at best, it can be an advice to the Prosecutor; the judgement of the Prosecutor and the court prosecuting the case will eventually be final, and not an Executive Committee. ...(Interruptions)... Otherwise, what Mr. Yechury says, an Executive recommendation with regard to innocence or guilt will be binding on a judicial authority; nobody has said that. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, my learned colleague is a lawyer and a lawyer must know the difference between Executive and a quasi-judicial body. What is a Review Committee for? And, what are the terms of reference of this Review Committee, let the Home Minister please tell the House. And, the Review Committee here has said that these are the people who could be charged with the existing laws; there is no need of a POTA, Mr. Arun Jaitley. ...(Interruptions)... and, this is exactly what he said. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: This is the judgement of the Gujarat High Court and the Supreme Court which has said that it is binding on the ... (Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : , ֯ ֟ I ֌ ֵә ...(־֮֬)...

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: My esteemed colleague will please listen ---- but since I am not an erudite lawyer like he is, I don't know about it. I mean, I don't keep track as to which judgement is this. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: It is in Raja Bhaiya's case. The recommendation of the Committee was not binding. It was the final opinion of the court. ...(Interruptions)... The Prosecutor has to apply judgement independently.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: The Prosecutor has no other option but to take that opinion. The court will have the right. But the Public Prosecutor under the Government of Gujarat has no other option. ...(Interruptions)... He has to go by the POTA Review Committee's recommendations, and that, Sir, is what is being obfuscated. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SHAHID SIDDIQUI: The Supreme Court has said that the Gujarat Prosecutors or even the Gujarat courts are biased. The Supreme Court has said it very clearly. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please allow Mr. Yechury to speak. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: In that case, they did not go by the advice of the ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jaitley, please allow Mr. Yechury to speak.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Thank you, Sir. What I am saying here very clearly is that this matter is now before the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has taken up the matter on what the Gujarat High Court has ruled. The Supreme Court is seized of that matter. But the point that I am making here, and on which I think I am right is this. I think I am right in making this point; let the court decide. But the POTA Review Committee gives its decision and it has given an unambiguous decision that more than 90 odd per cent of these people who have been arrested under POTA in Gujarat could have been tried under existing laws, and in no way can they be treated as conspiring as a terrorist conspiracy against the State, and this is the unequivocal, unambiguous decision of the POTA Review Committee. The Public Prosecutor of any State has no other option but to accept that. He can go to the court, and the court if it so decides, it can put that aside. Yes, let the courts decide that. But, how can the public prosecutor ... ...(Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ׻֋ ...(־֮֬)... Let him finish, Mr. Jiatley ...(Interruptions)... (Contd on 4d/SKC)

4D/5.15/SKC-KLG

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let him finish...(interruptions)...Mr. Jaitley, let him finish...(interruptions)... , ֯ ך ...(־֮֬).. ֯ ך ֯ ך, ߕօ ... (־֮֬) ..֯ և

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: This is not a forum for people ...(interruptions)...who commit atrocities...(interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jaitley, when you are speaking you may make your point..(interruptions)... If you want to make a point, you can say then...(interruptions)...

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Your party has used ...(interruptions)...photographs in the West Bengal elections...(interruptions)...posters in Kerala...(interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Arun Jaitley, this is not done...(interruptions)...What is this? Why are you not allowing him to speak...(interruptions)...This is not right...(interruptions)...What is this..(interruptions)... This is not right. Why are you not allowing him to speak?...(interruptions)... ֯ ך , ֯ ך ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ך ..(־֮֬).. ֯ ך, ߕօ ֯ ך ..(־֮֬) Please...(interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, he has made an accusation against my party, which is totally incorrect. Sir, over 700 of my party activists have become martyrs in the fight against terrorism...(interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : ֋, ..(־֮֬).. ִ , ֯ ך ֋, ֮ ԅ ָ ߅

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, please expunge...(interruptions)...Who is he talking about?...(interruptions)...He is talking about a party which is fighting...(interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ֲ ֮ , ...(־֮֬).. , ֯ ֮ ֟ ..(־֮֬)...You are going to speak. You may then say whatever you want to say. Why are you disturbing in between?...(interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, please expunge those comments...(interruptions)...expunge the comments he has made...(interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will look into his comments and then review...(interruptions)...I will look into it.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, this is precisely why I began speaking saying that this is an issue that requires a certain amount of attention and gravity of this House. I did not want matters to degenerate. I do not want certificates for my patriotism from *. I had very clearly said...(interruptions)...

0 ִ ӛָ : ֓և .. (־֮֬)...

ֳ֯ן : ֯ ? ...(־֮֬)... ֯ ? ...(־֮֬)... , , ߕօ ֋, ֯ և ֮ ߙ ָ כ ߕ֋ ...(־֮֬)... ו֋ ֮ ֟օ ...(־֮֬)..

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: I am not yielding...(interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: If he yields, then you can speak. But he has not yielded...(interruptions)...

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, I am on a point of order. Whether the last statement, which Mr. Yechury has used, is going on record...(interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall examine it and let you know...(interruptions)...

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: I am not yielding...(interruptions)...

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, the remarks used must be expunged...(interruptions)...they cannot be used in parliamentary democracy...(interruptions)...

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Absolutely not...(interruptions)...I will not accept this...(interruptions)...I will not accept...(interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will examine and take a decision. Please...(interruptions)... ֯ ך, և ..(־֮֬).. (Followed by 4E)

HK-AKA/4e/5.20

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: I am not yielding. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI ARUN SHOURIE: I have a point of order. ..(Interruptions).. Yesterday, you gave a ruling ..(Interruptions)..

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* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He has a point of order. ..(Interruptions).. ևә ֱ ֛ ָ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: I am not yielding. ..(Interruptions)..

ק : ӡ ׾ ..(־֮֬).. ։ כÙ ꅠ ..(־֮֬)..

 

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He is not yielding. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI ARUN SHOURIE: You gave a ruling. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let him complete. After that, you can say. ..(Interruptions).. I will listen to you. ..(Interruptions).. ֯ ך

SHRI ARUN SHOURIE: In your ruling, you said last time, 'Look at what Arun Jaitley has said." Yesterday, you gave a ruling about that case. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I said, I will examine it. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRU ARUN JAITLEY: He has called a political party an * and you want to examine it. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He is claiming that he has been told something. ..(Interruptions).. I will examine it. ..(Interruptions)..

ֻ־ӟ ֻ ֯֙ : ֻ-ֻ , ֋օ ..(־֮֬).. ׸֛ ֮ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ׸֛ ֮ , ֯ ׸֛ ֮ , ׸֛ ..(־֮֬)..

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: He has called me a *. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will look into the record. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI BALAVANT ALIAS BAL APTE: This has to be expunged. ..(Interruptions)..

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* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will look into the record. ..(Interruptions)..

ߴ֟ Ӥ ָ : ֕ ։ , ֓֯ , ָ ..(־֮֬)..

֮֮ߵ ֤õ : ֟ Ӭ * ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : ֌ֻ֮ ׸֌ That will be looked into, and then I will remove it. ..(Interruptions)..

ߟִָ : ָ ֯ * ׮֋ ..(־֮֬)..

Sir, I was responding and again I repeat that this issue requires to be discussed with a degree of gravity which is necessary for the sake of maintaining the secular democratic character of India. I was responding essentially when charges of protecting * were levelled against us. Therefore, what I am again appealing to you and through you to the House is that this is a matter of very grave importance for the future of our country and after the great debate, all that they have been shouting just now, we went through all that and then finally We, the people of India, adopted this Constitution, and the essential fundamental tenet and the feature of this Constitution on which the Supreme Court repeatedly endorsed the attention of the entire country is its secular democratic character, and that is something that we can never compromise and we cannot compromise. Therefore, what happened and continues to happen in Gujarat ֛ ֙ ֤, ֱ ִ ֟ ־ֻ ָ , ? ָ ֲԤ ? ӕ , ֱ ֟ ׻֋ ָև ߅ Ͽ֮ ..(־֮֬)..

ֳ֯ן : , כÙ ֟ ׸ ('4F/SCH' ָ )

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* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

KSK/SCH/5.25/4F

ߟִָ : Ͽ֮ , ָ, ָ ָ ֬ ֟ ו֮ ׌ ֻ פ ֟ , , ָ ָ ֵԾ ӡ ֟֋ - ֵ? ָ ֵ ָ , ֮֕ן ã ־ ã ֣ , ִ ׻ ֣ ֟ ָ ֳ ֲָ , ָ ֵԾ ? ָ , Ϥ ֟ ֲ , ֕ ׬ָ ָ ß ꅠ ӛ Ù ֲꌙ ָ ָ ߵ ß , ֲ ֻ֟ ֮ ײ֛ ֟ ֮ ׾֮֬ ׮ֵ֤ ֓ ֟, ׸ãן ֳ ß ֺ ׻֋ ֛ ֓ , ֛ ֟ , ߬-߬ 1993 ֮ ӑ֮ Places of Worship Act, 1993 ֮ ׸ , ߬-߬ ӑ֮ ִ ־ֻ 385 ֮ ָ ֻ , ָ ִ ׻֋ ֟ ֙ , ֜ ֵօ ִ , פ ֵ ׻ ָ ָ ß օ ׻֋ ӳ߸ ־ֻ ...(־֮֬)

׾ֵ֮ יָ: ֳ֯ן , ָ-׮ִ ֻ ֟ ֜ , ָ ׸ ֯ ־ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן: ֋ , ׸ ־֋ ...(־֮֬) ׸ ֮ ׻֋ ...(־֮֬) ֯ ך ...(־֮֬) ֋, ֟ ...(־֮֬) ֯ ך ...(־֮֬)

׾ֵ֮ יָ: ָ, ...(־֮֬) , , ֵ֟ ...(־֮֬) ׸֛ ֟ ...(־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן: יָ , ...(־֮֬) ֯ ...(־֮֬)

׾ֵ֮ יָ: ָ, ֟ , ָ ׸ ־ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן: ֟

֓: ֳ֯ן , ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ִ ֙ פ כ ו ӕߤ ו ׾ֵ ָ ֻ , ӳ߸ ™֟ ֟ , ֳ ֤õ ֮ 녠 ֙ ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ִ פ , ֲ ָ ֋, ֲ

ֳ֯ן: ֳ  ָ-ָ ߻ ֯ ...(־֮֬) , , ...(־֮֬) ֋ יָ , ֯ ֳ ָ ֕ ֳ ָ , ֯ ָָ ֻ ...(־֮֬) ֯ ָָ ֻ ߓ-ߓ ׸֛ ־և ֣ ָ ׸֛ ־֋ ֟ , ߕ ֯ և

֓: ߓ ֯ - ...(־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן: ֲ ֯ , ֲ ו֋ ...(־֮֬)

׾ֵ֮ יָ: , ֯ ػ և , ֮ ֻ

ߟִָ : ֯ ׮־ ֯ 1912 ׸ ־ ו֋ ֛ ֵ֕ ָ֕ , ִֵ ֛ ־ ֵ ׸ ןף , ָ פ ֋ ֣ ֻ֟ ֟ ֳ ָ ֳ ִ ֟ ָ ָ , ֮֟ 385 ױָ פ 386 384 , ־ֻ ï™ ׸ ָ ? ֲ ׸, דֻ , ׸ ָ ? ָ ֕ ֳ ִ ֟ , ֕ ׾־֤

׾ֵ֮ יָ: ו ָ ֯ ֟֓ߟ , ָ ֟֓ߟ ...(־֮֬)

SHRI SHAHID SIDDIQUI: Sir, he is interrupting in every sentence.

ֳ֯ן: ֋ יָ , ...(־֮֬) ...(־֮֬)

ߟִָ : ָ, ֤ , ו֮֟ ֙֋ , ו֮ ֓ , ױ ֮ ־ֻ , ָ֟ ׯ֔ ӓ-: ֻ ן , ֣ ָ ָ ָ, ִ׮ָ ֮֟ס ֮֟ , ָ þָ ָ ָ ֮ ׸ãן և, ָ ֱ ֟ ׻ օ ׮־ ָ ֮ , 1993 Places of Worship Act , ӑ֮ ָ ֵԾ , ו֮ ԙ ֟ ևԅ MCM/4G ָ ֿ:

MCM-GSP/4G/5-30

ߟִָ (֟) : ֕ ֲָ ָ ܵ ָ , ָ ָև ָ ֻ ־ ֮ ֟ ָ֟ ׻ ָ ߴ ֲ ֮ ֟ ֺ ָ ӡֵֻ ӡ ֟ Ӥ ָ Ӥ ײ֛ ֮ ָ ִ׮ָ ֮֟ӡ ֟ӡ ֲ֕ ֋, ֱ ָ ׮־ (ִ֯)

ֳ֯ן : ִ ̴֕߅ ֯ ֙ 8 ״֮֙ ևش ֮

ִ ̴֕ (ָ Ϥ) :  ָ, ֮֯ ֛ ױָ֯ß , ָ ֮ פօ

ֳ֯ן : ֯ כ

ִ ̴֕ : ֟ ֲ ֮ ָ ֟ ֮ ֕ ָ ֋ ָ ױ ֮ ֮ ֛ ֤ ָ ָ ָ ֮ ׻֋ ִ ֕ ָ , , ָ, ֤֟ ן׾׬ֵ օ ֤֟ ן׾׬ֵ ֜ ֲ ״ֻ ֱֻ ו֮ ָ ָ ֻ֟, ֟ ֮ , ֱֻ ֲ ״ֻ ֟ , ָ ָָ ׻ ׸ ָ , ֲ ״ֻ ? ֟ , ו ָ ָ ָ ֣ ו , ָָ ֕ ֲ ֤ ֺ ָ, ֵ , ֻ ֛ ֵ ָ ֻ֟ , ״ֻ ֵ ߮ ׮֋ ִֻ֮ ־ֻ , ֛ ִֻ֮ ߓ ׻ ָ , ָָ ָ ׻ ָ ָ ָև ïֻ֟ ״ֻ, 18-20 ïֻ֟ ֛ ꅠ ׻ֵ ߓ , ֲ ָ ߅ ֤ ֻ , ׮ և ָ ֓ ֵօ 18-19 ֛ ֤ և ״ֻ ֵ֟ ָ ֮ ָ ֿ߮ ֻ Ԯև֮ ָ ֛ Ӥ ָ 0ָ0և0 ֋ ֯ ֆꅠ ֛ ֟ ָ ֵ ֮ פ ֵօ 2002 ֮ פ ֵ ָ ָ ֻ פ ֵ ֣ ֤ ֵ , օ -Ӧ ָ, ָ ֮ פ ֵօ ֻ֟ ָ, ָ ָ ֕ և ָ ֻ֮ ֻ ֕ ָ ֮ ֕ և ָ ִֻ֯ , ִֻ֯ ֺ ֋, ֲ ָ ֟ ִ֮ , Ԯֻ ״ֻ ֟ , ָ ׻֮ ֟ ָ ו֧ ָ ו̤ ֮ ֣ ֋, ָ ß ֮֋ꅠ ֕ , 385 ֻ և , 385 ֻ ִֻ֯, ֌ ֮ օ ֲ֮ ִ֟ 2002 ָָ ָ , 2002 ֤ ױ ֋ ִ֟ ָ ֮֓ ׻֋ ֢ ꅠ ָ ׻֋ ֟ ָ ֟ ֣ Ӭ ֟ , ֟ ו ֤֕ ֵ ָ֟ ֲ ֤ ָ֟ ֌ ָ֟ ꠠ ָߠ , Ӭ ֟ ֱ ߅ ֕օ ִ ָ ֟ ? ִ ָ ָ ֟ ֮ ִ ֣ ֛ , ׸ , ָ ֮ ֮ ָ ֓- ֵ , ֤֕ , ֮ ָ ָ ָ ֋ , ֛ ֤ ִ ָ ֵօ ֛ ֤ ֮ ָ ָ ָ߲ ָ ָ Ӥ ָ, ָ ֤ ו ֮ , ִ ֟ , ֮ և ֣, ֲ ֣ ֟ , ׻ և, ִ և 5 ״֮֙ ֤ ֟ ֻ ֿ ֛

(4h ָ ֿ:)

GS-SK/4H/5.35

ִ ̴֕ (֟) : ֻ ֤ ־ ߓ ׻ և ߅ ֤ ָ ֛ , ֛ פ ֵ, ֣ ָ ֜ և ֛ ָ פ ֵ ֤ ֛ ֻ և ֵָ ײ ֛ , פ ֵ, ֮ פ ֵ, ׻ ָ և, ָ ָ , ִ ֵօ ׻֋ ֯ ֕ ׻֋ ָ , ֮ ֵ֤ ׻֋ ָ 㴲և , ֯ 㴲և 㴲և ïֻ֟ ֵ, ֛ Õ֤ ߓ ֮ , ֛ פ ֵ , ֯ 㴲և ֵ, ֛ פ ֮ , ֛ և , ֛ ֙׸ ֤ ֕ פ ֵ ֕ ָ ִֻ ֕ ֤ ֵ, ֮֮ ׻֋ ָ ָ և פ פ ֵ , ֟ פ פ ֟ ֯ ֤Կ פ Õ֤ ֵ, ֤Կ , ֟ ֕ օ ִֻ ֺ , פ-Õ֤ ֮֓ ֤ ֺ ָ, ׻֋ ֯ ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ֟ , 80 ֻ, ׸ և 80 ֮ ֵֻ ? ׸ և Ӥ ֻև , ׸ ָ-ָ և 80 ֻ֮ ֤ 180 ֻ ֵ ֤ ֮ ׸֮ և ָ ֻ פ ֵ, ֮ ֵ, ָ ״׮Ù ֵ֟ ..(־֮֬).. ֤ Ӥ , ֱ ? ֮ ֲ 80 ֵֻ ֵ, 180 Ӥ ֵ և ָ ֵֻ ֵ, Ӥ օ ֮ ? כ״֮֮ ֣ ָ ֲ ֻ Ù ײֻ ֮ ָ֟ ֻ , ָ Ù ֆ, ֟ ֤ ֵ ֯ ֮ ֟, ֵ ߮ ֻ ֵ , ָ ӓ ָ ֤֟ ן׾׬ֵ әֻ ꌵ׸ ָ , ֯ ֓ ָ ו֋, ֯ ֤֟ ו֮ - ֵ֓ ֵ ֣ ָֻ֟ ֵ, , ֤֟ ֣ , ״ֻ ֲ ֲԤ וֿ ׻֋ ֕ ֣ , ִֻ֮ ֟ ֲ ָ ֵ , ׻֋ ֮ ִ ִֻ֮ ֟ , ָ־ ֻ ֟ , ָ־ֵ ֟ , ֺ ֲ ֮֮ פ ֵ, ִ ָ ֵ ֮֮ ָ פ ֵ ו ָ ֮֮ 1984 פ ָ ֵ פ ֵ ӓ ֵ ֮֮ ״ֻ֮ , ָߕ , 2 ֵ פ ֵ, ו֮ ֮, ו֮ ׸, ו֮ ָ և , ֮־֮ ׻֋ ֮֮ ״ֻ֮ ָ ׻ ֻ , ו֮ ׻ֵ ֻև, ï ֱֻ ֵֻ ֵ, ֲ ֵ ֵ ֲ ׻ ֻ ֻ ֜ ָ ָ ֤ ו֋, ֯ ָָ , ֯ և ٙ 356 ו֋, ? ֟ ֣ ֮ ֟ ֟ ֕ ָ֟ , ָ֟ ֻꯛ , ָ֟ ֛ ״ָֻ֮ , ֕ ָ֟ -ִֻ֮ ֛ , ָ ٙ ֛ ֙ ִ ֵ ֛և ֢ ֆ, ׻֋ ֟ ׻֋ ָָ , ָָ ֮ ֛, ָ ֟ ֵ - օ (ִ֯)






ֳ֯ן : , ֮֯ ֌ ׻֕ օ 0 ִ ӛָ߅

0 ִ ӛָ (ײָ) : ֮֮ߵ ֳ֯ן , ֯ ׾ֵ ָ ӳ߸ ֓ ߕ ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ֟ ֲ ֮ ֟ ָ֟ ָ ָ֟ ָ ָָ ֵֻ ֵ, ָ ָָ ֮ ֵ, ϴ , ָָ ֙ ꅠ (4 ָ ָ)

SC/5.40/4J

0 ִ ӛָ (֟) : ִ ֮֟ ֣ ֵ , ֮֟ ִ, ִϤֵ ֣ ײ֮ ֯֟ ֮ ֻ֮ ָ ִ׮ָ ׸ , ֳ ָָ ִ ִϤ׵ ֤־ , ֳ ִ ֣ ״ֻ- , ׸ , ָ ֛ , ָ֟ 2002 ױ ֮ ָ ֋ ֛ ܵ ֵֻ ֛ ָ֟ ן ֮֕֬ ָָ ִ - ֕ ן ן , ָָ , ã - , ߮ ׬ ִֵ ֮ ָָ ָ ָ ֮ օ ִ , ֱ ִֻ֮, ׻ ָ ֟ , ָ ִ ָ ֟ ׾׳֮ ִ ן ֮ , ֮ օ ֟ ָ ׮ִ ׬׸ ӲӬ ֓ ֵ߅ ֯ ָߵ ֮֟ ֙ , ֋ ׬ָ , ֋ ָ ߅ ֵ֤ ֮ ִ֬ ָ֟-2002 ֮ , ֤ؕ ֻ֮ ֵ֤ ֻ , 2002 ֤ؕ ֵֻ ֵ օ ָ ֟ ֕ ֲ ִ ָ֯ ֮ ֛ , ֛ ֤ؕ ֻ פ ֵօ , ֮ ָ ׻ , ָ ׻ ֵ֟ ߅ , ߕ߯ ֻ ߓ ָ֟ ָ ֲָ ֱ ֲָ ֲ ָ֟ 2002 , ִֵ ֲ֤֤ ׻ ״ָֿ ߕ߯ ֮, ֛ օ , ָ , ִ֤ , ִϤ׵ ׻֋ ִ֤ , ׻ ֲ ָ ײ֚֮ ֵ֮ ? ָָ ? ֤֕ , ֻ֟ , ִ ָ ߅ ִ ָ ִ ֲ ֮ פ ִ , ֲ ָ ߅ 24 ָ ֤֕ , 㻱ָ شֵ, ֛ - ָ ߅ ָָ ? , , פ Õ֤ ߮-ָ ֻ ֮ - ָ ã, ָ ן, ָ ן ϟ ֟ , ָ ã, ן ן ϟ , ֮֮ ֟ ? ꬵ פօ ֮֮ ֟ ֮ ֟ , ֟ ֮ ֤ , ֤ ß ֮֮ , פ ֋ ֮֟ , ֤? ָ ֤ ֮֟ ܵ ӡ ֟օ ִֵ ܵ ӡ , ֟ ָ ָ֟ 2002 ֤ יֵ ֵ , ߴ יֵ ֵ - ֮֟ ֟?

(4 ָ ֿ:)

NB/VKK/4K/5.45

. ִ ӛָ (֟) : פ ֱ 2005 ־ ֻ .... (־֮֬) 2007 ־ ֻ ׾ ֟ ... (־֮֬) ֮ 15 ֕ , - ֕ ... (־֮֬) ֮֮ߵ ֤õ ׾ ֟ , ָ֟ ׾ , , ֟ ֻ ׾ ִ ָ ֮ , ãן ָ֟ ֮֕ן ãן ֲָ 2002 ָ ִ ֋ ױ ִ ӯϤֵ ִ ָ ֱ פև ײ֮ ָ ß ܟֵָ : ָ֟ ָָ ֮֮ ָ ״֡ : ָ֟ ָָ ֮֮ , ãן ִ֮ ãן ָ֟ ָָ ֮߅ , ָ ֮֮ ϵ֠ , ָ ӯϤ׵ ֋, ױ ָָ ֮ ֋ ... (־֮֬) , ֚ ӛ ָ-ָ ֜ , ֚ ӛ ָ ָ-ָ ֜ , ָ ֜ և, ֜ և, ָ ֜ ׻֋ ָ ָ֟ ָָ ֮֮ ... (־֮֬)

ֳ֯ן , ִõ ֮ ך օ ָ וֻ Ͽ֮ ָ ׮ִ ָָ ֮ , ֛ ִõ , ֮ ߅ ָ ִֵ , ײ֚ ֟ , ß ׮ ֟օ ֛, ָ encroachment , encroachment ֛ ָ, ׻ ֛ ָ encroachment ֲ 300-400 ֻ ן ֮ , ֛ ָ encroachment ?

ֳ֯ן , ֛ ֟ , ׻ ܵ ִֵ ֮ ִ׮֟ ֟ ֕ ָָ ָ ִ , ֟ 2002 ֙ ֆ ָ֟ ֙ օ ֕ ָָ ֟ , ׻֋ ֟ ָ ִ , ֕ ָ ֵ ֟ , ֛ ֟

ֳ֯ן : ӛָ , ֯ ִ֯ ו֋

. ִ ӛָ : ָָ ֮ , ֮ ָ 3 פ -׮ ֻ 9 ׮ֵ , ״׮Ù ׻֋ ֮־֤ ߵ ָָ ִֵ ׸ ֵԾ , ֕ ָָ ӯ օ ִ-׮ָ ׸ , ӯϤ׵ ֤־֮ , פ ֕ ָָ ה-׳֮ , ֕ ָָ ֱֻ ׮׿֟ ֵԾ ֮ ... և ׮־ ָָ ֟ ֟ , ָ ִ-׮ָ ׸ , ӯϤ׵ ֤־ , ֟ , ֟ ֮ֆ ֲ ֣, ֮ ֟ ִ֯ - ֮־֤ (ִ֯)

ֵ֮ ֻ ָ : ָ֟ ָָ ֣ ӓ ã֮ ָ ָ֮׻ ־ , ִ ... 90 ָ ָ ߟ և , ߟ և ? ֌ ָ׻ 21 ߙ ߟ ֋

ֵָ : ֯ ָ׻ ־ ִ֮֟ ֓ ֋

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH (ANDHRA PRADESH): Thank you, Sir, for giving me an opportunity. Sir, this has become a routine to discuss about the communal disturbances in the august House. In my eight years as parliamentarian, this is the seventh time, I am participating in such a discussion. (Contd. by RSS/4L)

RSS/4l/5.50

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH (CONTD.): This reflects how secular we are, and my colleague, Shri Sitaram Yechuri, has rightly mentioned about the secular character of the country. But, how secular is secular India, and who is secular? I think, the Indian people are more secular than the Indian politicians. The common man is more secular than the politicians in this country, and we have been trying to take advantage of every situation to garner votes. One party is trying to garner votes of the majority, another party is trying to garner votes of the minority, and honestly, I am admitting that no party is sincere about their well being, and they only want to garner votes. I should admit honestly that this particular incident, which has happened in Gujarat, would have been manageable if the administration had behaved with a sense of objectivity. But, this has not happened...(Interruptions)...

ֳ֯ן : , ֲ , ֈ , ֮֟ ֺ

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Sir, in Gujarat, the wounds of 2002 Godhra incident are yet to be healed, and again, this incident has happened. I was wondering that the particular shrine, which has been demolished, was being managed by the Hindus. I read this in a magazine, and people were so secular that they have been managing the sufi saints shrine, and it is very unfortunate that this incident has taken place. Sir, I will tell you that the Chief Minister of Gujarat was having a very good opportunity to erase his image of 2002. He was having a very good opportunity. He has missed it. The reports which we are reading, show that even after hectic telephone calls, police was not attending to the victims even after one-and-a-half hours or two hours. That shows the lack of objectivity, lack of sincerity on the part of the administration to control the incidents, and the officials were aware of the whole situation. I would like to refer to the statement of the Commissioner of Police. The Commissioner of Police says: "The police had warned of the communal flare up during the demolition. But, the Municipal Corporation insisted that we are prepared for the trouble." This was what the Vadodara Police Commissioner told the Frontline. Sir, to what extent, he has been equipped, to what extent, he was committed to control the situation, and he admitted that he was aware of this flare up; he was aware that this particular incident is going to lead to the communal flare up. But, in spite of that, he has allowed it. This all gives a wrong picture that the administration has totally failed. I am not accusing them because it is being run by a particular party, and people are living in mistrust, distrust. I am only telling you that a particular officer, who was the Commissioner of Police, and during whose tenure, the notorious Godhra incident took place, he has been posted as the DGP there. How can victims of this incident have trust in such an administration? It is a very sorry state of affairs. Sir, most of the communal incidents are being perpetrated by the local elements. But they are being abetted by outside forces. You take the recent killings of Hindus in Jammu and Kashmir. Sir, I come from a village where I am being called as 'uncle' by the Muslim people. I come from such a village. People in villages are living in perfect harmony. Small incidents will take place. But, we should have the sagacity and capability to solve them, and when we try to take advantage of this situation just for our survival in politics, this sorry state of affairs arises, which is to the detriment of the nation. (contd. by 4m)

MKS/AKG/5.55/4M

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH (CONTD.): Sir, in most of the incidents, the local people are participating. I have seen some incidents in Andhra Pradesh where very poor people are being engaged for this purpose, the most gullible people. And it is because of the poverty that is prevailing in the country, or it is because of the unemployment that is prevailing in the country. Terrorism or factionalism, I am honestly telling you, Sir, is all pervasive in the State of Andhra Pradesh. Sir, I am using these words 'all pervasive'. It is perpetrated by the poor people alone. They are being engaged at Rs.150/- or Rs.200/- per day. And for killing a fellow, five thousand rupees can be paid. That is the price of a human being! So, the particular problem of poverty has to be eradicated. Thanks to the Governments which were in power for a major period of time; they have failed in eradicating poverty in this country. I do not want to take much time, Sir. Let us, all the political parties, not try to take advantage of the situation. When we are trying to come to a consensus on particular issues, in sharing the positions, or I can say, even on the Office of Profit Bill, why can't we have a consensus on issues like this? Let us play politics on other issues, but not on communal issues. Sir, we have to give an image to the outside world that India is very secular. We can live peacefully only in harmonious conditions. We cannot live in disturbed circumstances. We cannot improve the economy of our country; we cannot achieve a growth rate of more than eight per cent if there are disturbances in the country. And it is very difficult to attract investments also. India cannot be respected in the comity of nations. So, in the interest of the nation, let us resolve that we will uphold the principles of secularism in this country. Thank you, Sir. (Ends)

SHRI MANOHAR GAJANAN JOSHI (MAHARASHTRA): Thank you very much, Sir, for giving me permission to speak on this very important issue. Mr. Deputy Chairman, I am, indeed, upset by the incidents that took place in Gujarat. I know that it is always painful to see the death of somebody and, therefore, it is absolutely necessary to go to the root cause in the interest of the nation and find out what are the reasons for such type of incidents. Sir, I was Chief Minister of the State of Maharashtra, a very advanced State, for a period of four years. When I became the Chief Minister, everybody thought that since I was the Shiv Sena Chief Minister, there might be communal riots between Hindus and Muslims. But this is a fact that during those four years, no communal riot took place in the State of Mahrashtra excepting one incident in Raigad District. But I immediately flew to the spot and nothing further happened. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that it is possible to stop such riots or, at least, to control such riots. But, Sir, today, the question before me is whether we want a development or whether we do not want a development. The other day, I spoke on a Bill which was brought before this House about extending the one year period for the unauthorised structures in Delhi, and when I spoke on that day, I also mentioned the same point. Once and for all, we have to decide whether we are pro-development or whether we are anti-development.

(Contd. by 4N)

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